When you record a guitar in a loud room...

[northern_dirt]

But id only use that as a scratch track

Why do you say that? Do you not care for the sound of an E906 or something with them recording a VI? No judgment, just curious as I've got a couple E906s, but haven't done a ton of recording...

Well Id want to re record the quitar tracks in isolation anyways..
but I also have better mics for that and I usually use at least 2 on a cab plus DI.
(But id have them on the drums)

[Embenny]

One of the things I've noticed about guitarists is that they tend to set their tone so that it sounds good as they're listening to their amp way, way off-axis. That almost invariably means that the guitar tone itself has way more attack/treble when you stick a mic in front of the cab.

Anytime you play in a room, you get a lot of indirect sound bouncing off of surfaces and smearing the attack, so one of those "learning curve" type things is to start auditioning your guitar tone while directly facing the speaker. Kickback stands or placing amps/cabs at ear height can really help; so does sitting in front of the amp if it's down low. Of course, your ability to do this may be tempered by the SPL involved (don't go blowing out your ear drums by sticking your head up against an amp pumping out 100+ dB). In that case, it helps to approach it like an engineer and make your tweaks based on what the mic is picking up rather than the tone in the room, which can involve moving/swapping the mic as well as adjusting the signal chain itself.

This is also the typical sticking point for people when comparing digital modelers to amps. Modelers target that "mic'd amp being played back" tone vs the "amp in the room" tone, and a lot of people who are used to being in a room off-axis from their amp can't reconcile how different that sounds. It's a dramatically different listening perspective.

[øøøøøøø]

Or you could just move the mic back

When I was fortunate enough to be recorded by the late Ed Cherney, the first thing I noticed was that every single mic was further from the source than I’d come to expect based on prior experience.

It has shaped my approach to recording ever since. I always at least consider a bit of extra distance, especially on guitar amps.

I tend to start about 12-18” back now. Can move closer if I want more detail and/or proximity effect (or further away if I want).

Since breaking my habit of sticking speakers right up on the grille (as a live sound engineer might), I find myself feeling less need to patch in a compressor.

This is really where I notice the effect of a bit of distance… dynamic envelope. I need to study more physics to ensure I understand what’s actually going on, but it sure seems that a little air between the speaker and the mic has a compressor-like effect (maybe it’s just air resistance softening transients and smoothing top end a bit?)

[Embenny]

Or you could just move the mic back

When I was fortunate enough to be recorded by the late Ed Cherney, the first thing I noticed was that every single mic was further from the source than I’d come to expect based on prior experience.

It has shaped my approach to recording ever since. I always at least consider a bit of extra distance, especially on guitar amps.

I tend to start about 12-18” back now. Can move closer if I want more detail and/or proximity effect (or further away if I want).

Since breaking my habit of sticking speakers right up on the grille (as a live sound engineer might), I find myself feeling less need to patch in a compressor.

This is really where I notice the effect of a bit of distance… dynamic envelope. I need to study more physics to ensure I understand what’s actually going on, but it sure seems that a little air between the speaker and the mic has a compressor-like effect (maybe it’s just air resistance softening transients and smoothing top end a bit?)

Based on my knowledge of acoustics, I'd guess that you're getting a little time-domain smearing of the transients from introducing a bit of room sound. Instead of essentially coupling the mic's movement with that of the speaker, you're allowing some early reflections in (primarily the floor, probably), but their path would be short so it would be very subtle compared to a room mic.

Great point, though. Moving the mic along the z axis can be just as fruitful as moving it along the x and y. And moving it behind the speaker on an open-back cab can sound amazing for certain styles and tones as well.

[øøøøøøø]

Based on my knowledge of acoustics, I'd guess that you're getting a little time-domain smearing of the transients from introducing a bit of room sound. Instead of essentially coupling the mic's movement with that of the speaker, you're allowing some early reflections in (primarily the floor, probably), but their path would be short so it would be very subtle compared to a room mic.

This seems sensible!

[marqueemoon]

Yeah. If you’re going for live takes bleed isn’t a bad thing, but the sounds have to work together.

And the room itself has to sound decent of course.

[Shadoweclipse13]

But id only use that as a scratch track

Why do you say that? Do you not care for the sound of an E906 or something with them recording a VI? No judgment, just curious as I've got a couple E906s, but haven't done a ton of recording...

Well Id want to re record the quitar tracks in isolation anyways..
but I also have better mics for that and I usually use at least 2 on a cab plus DI.
(But id have them on the drums)

What do you use instead? I like recording DI and a cab together as well, in case I want to re-amp something later.

[northern_dirt]

Why do you say that? Do you not care for the sound of an E906 or something with them recording a VI? No judgment, just curious as I've got a couple E906s, but haven't done a ton of recording...

Well Id want to re record the quitar tracks in isolation anyways..
but I also have better mics for that and I usually use at least 2 on a cab plus DI.
(But id have them on the drums)

What do you use instead? I like recording DI and a cab together as well, in case I want to re-amp something later.

MD421,MD441, R121, C414, D12e, D122, U47fet, TLM170, TLM102.. back when I was recording bands I had a shit ton of options.. I want to try out those Beyer 201s as well, but I haven't been tracking bands for a couple years and sold off 2/3s of my mics so buying something new to not use it seems weird

[Shadoweclipse13]

MD421,MD441, R121, C414, D12e, D122, U47fet, TLM170, TLM102.. back when I was recording bands I had a shit ton of options.. I want to try out those Beyer 201s as well, but I haven't been tracking bands for a couple years and sold off 2/3s of my mics so buying something new to not use it seems weird

Damn! Some nice mics in that list! Many of which are outside my budget (either more than I have or more than I'd want to spend on a mic truthfully).

[øøøøøøø]

Compared to the rest of the internet, I'm not quite as obsessed with the M201. It's a good moving-coil dynamic. I think we have one.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, but unless I suddenly learn some new insight about them (and there's every chance I will), I'm not going out of my way to buy one.

[northern_dirt]

MD421,MD441, R121, C414, D12e, D122, U47fet, TLM170, TLM102.. back when I was recording bands I had a shit ton of options.. I want to try out those Beyer 201s as well, but I haven't been tracking bands for a couple years and sold off 2/3s of my mics so buying something new to not use it seems weird

Damn! Some nice mics in that list! Many of which are outside my budget (either more than I have or more than I'd want to spend on a mic truthfully).

I paid way below MSRP on the new ones and
great deals on the used ones on the resale market
For example, the TLM 170 I paid $1000CDN for
(They retail for $4800CDN tax in here)
For the new stuff, MD421, 441, 102s I had a deal through
sennheiser because of my work and I get them for about 50% off
The U47fet I paid $3000 for and flipped it for $5000..
Finding deals has always been 1.2 the fun of GAS
(I did have an inheritance that bankrolled my mic and preamp collection at the time)

[northern_dirt]

Compared to the rest of the internet, I'm not quite as obsessed with the M201. It's a good moving-coil dynamic. I think we have one.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, but unless I suddenly learn some new insight about them (and there's every chance I will), I'm not going out of my way to buy one.

I just see them being used in place of 57s and ive kinda made it my lifes goal to never use them.. again hahaha
(Though Id like to grab some vintage unidyne iii's just in case.. and I dont see that as cheating haha)

[øøøøøøø]

I don’t have much problem with a 57. I like them just fine on snare drum or distorted guitar cab (usually in combination with something else).

For awhile I used the M201 on snare top sometimes but have kind of drifted away from it lately.

I remember in the early ‘00s Steve Albini’s studio had a website with descriptions of all the microphones, and the description of the M201 said something like “what a SM57 would be like if it were actually a microphone” or something acerbic along those lines.

Correlation doesn’t equal causation, but almost exactly at that time a lot of Internet forum posters suddenly loved the M201 (which I’d never heard of before) and hated the SM57.

I was definitely one of them! But in hindsight that was a silly way for me to form an opinion about a microphone—it wasn’t based on impressions formed from actual long-term use, but rather on a kind of “appeal to authority.”

Nowadays I’m a bit more likely to use a 57 than an m201

[JSett]

I've flip-flopped between SM57 and M201 on a snare many times. I always managed to get a decent sound from either but liked to back it up with an LDC pointed at the side of the drum...good for detail in delicate ghost notes and a bit extra body in the low end if you need it.

[northern_dirt]

I've flip-flopped between SM57 and M201 on a snare many times. I always managed to get a decent sound from either but liked to back it up with an LDC pointed at the side of the drum...good for detail in delicate ghost notes and a bit extra body in the low end if you need it.

What LDC can you fit in there?