Considering 1955 Gibson J45

[øøøøøøø]

Having a flat edge in general will help you, since you can also use it on the top. It can help you easily see if the top is sinking, and it can help with seeing if the top is bulging, also. Now, you want there to be some play there, the top is radiused after all. And the bridge will have a little more. But you will be able to see if it is extreme and if so, you might want to walk away.

Take a dental mirror and inspect the bracing. That can be fixed- all of this can- but you really will want to know if you are going to have to sink hundred of dollars into it or what.

I kind of question whether the average player is really qualified to make any of these assessments, especially "in the field."

It requires a fair bit of expertise/knowledge to know what you're looking for--both from a general luthier-skills perspective and also from a "historical knowledge" perspective.

For instance, in order for a straight-edge to be useful you'd have to understand that a J45 top has a slight crown. It's supposed to. Putting a straight-edge across the top and rejecting it because it's "bulging" after reading an internet article isn't any pathway toward more-informed purchasing decisions.

I think I'm pretty handy in general and pretty slick with guitars, but I definitely do not feel qualified to assess bracing on a J45 with a dental mirror.

If it's rattling when I play, that's still my best indicator that a brace is loose. If it sounds anemic or something isn't quite right, that's another indication something is amiss.

I can find the faults, in other words--but I still think it's wisest to leave the diagnosis to the experts.

[Larry Mal]

Having a flat edge in general will help you, since you can also use it on the top. It can help you easily see if the top is sinking, and it can help with seeing if the top is bulging, also. Now, you want there to be some play there, the top is radiused after all. And the bridge will have a little more. But you will be able to see if it is extreme and if so, you might want to walk away.

Take a dental mirror and inspect the bracing. That can be fixed- all of this can- but you really will want to know if you are going to have to sink hundred of dollars into it or what.

I kind of question whether the average player is really qualified to make any of these assessments, especially "in the field."

It requires a fair bit of expertise/knowledge to know what you're looking for--both from a general luthier-skills perspective and also from a "historical knowledge" perspective.

For instance, in order for a straight-edge to be useful you'd have to understand that a J45 top has a slight crown. It's supposed to. Putting a straight-edge across the top and rejecting it because it's "bulging" after reading an internet article isn't any pathway toward more-informed purchasing decisions.

I think I'm pretty handy in general and pretty slick with guitars, but I definitely do not feel qualified to assess bracing on a J45 with a dental mirror.

If it's rattling when I play, that's still my best indicator that a brace is loose. If it sounds anemic or something isn't quite right, that's another indication something is amiss.

I can find the faults, in other words--but I still think it's wisest to leave the diagnosis to the experts.

Fair enough- however, I did mention that the top was radiused, and we we are only looking for anything extreme. And since he is taking three guitars to trade, I doubt he's going to be able to get this to an expert at the same time.

Also, if you lay the flat edge across the top of the guitar and there is no play at all, or worse the top is underneath the flat edge, then you can easily see that the top is collapsed. There should be some rocking back and forth if the top is radiused as it should be. But not much. In other words, you do not want to see a concavity there.

Whether you can see anything with a dental mirror or not, that's up to the individual, I guess. No reason not to look, if you don't see anything alarming, then you don't.

I could mention one thing that would be possible to see with a mirror, and it's this "Bridge Doctor". And you do not want to see one.

If one is there, it means that the top collapsed downward, and it was treated- not fixed- by putting in this support structure. If you have to do this to a guitar you like, cool, but you don't want to be trading three great guitars for one that had structural problems that could only be glossed over.

And it may not be possible to fix it, you may be stuck with the Bridge Doctor.

Also, there is a product called the "Plate Mate",
which again is not ideal to see. What happens is the metal ball ends of the strings wear at the wooden bottom of the bridge so that the holes no longer hold the strings in place properly, and again this is treated but not fixed by applying a metal plate underneath the bridge.

This might not be that big of a deal, although I would imagine the metal plate hardly helps the sound. Regardless, to bring it back to where it was supposed to be would require a new bridge to be installed.

However anyone can tell what the neck is doing with a flat edge, though. This is my main advice, because you don't want to buy a guitar and have to turn around and do a neck reset any time soon. So you lay the flat edge along the top of the frets and see where the flat edge falls on the bridge, it should more or less match up with the top of the bridge. If it's much lower than that and there's not much saddle to work with, you are looking at a neck reset down the road.

That is expensive on Gibsons, since the neck and body is finished together. God knows what the vintage nature of it is.

[øøøøøøø]

All fair, and I’ll just add—

The caveats above, as a group, are the main reason that I now mostly only buy expensive guitars from trusted vintage experts.

This usually costs more up front, but ideally a high end dealer like Gruhn or Retrofret will address any structural issues before placing the instrument out for sale.

At the very least, you can be sure they know what to look for, and if they’re scrupulous they’ll either address the issue comprehensively or disclose it on an as-is sale.

These guitars are getting older… a 1940s guitar is 80 years old now. They all need some kind of attention by now if they haven’t had it already. They will all need neck resets sooner or later. They’ll all need braces reglued and they will all need frets and they will all need bridge plate replacements at some point… most that haven’t had these things done at least once are overdue.

I find that the “bargain” often ends up costing more in the end

[Telliot]

Also, there is a product called the "Plate Mate",
which again is not ideal to see. What happens is the metal ball ends of the strings wear at the wooden bottom of the bridge so that the holes no longer hold the strings in place properly, and again this is treated but not fixed by applying a metal plate underneath the bridge.

The Martin I recently bought had a Plate Mate installed by the previous owner, something he advertised as being a positive addition to the overall sound of the guitar. I pulled it out almost immediately. It gave the tone a weird metallic zing that was not pleasant to my ears, and its removal cleared it up right away. I also didn’t see any structural reason for it to be there in the first place. I think people buy into the hype with a lot of this stuff when in reality, it isn’t necessary and often detracts from the sound of the instrument [side eyes the buzz stop].

[Larry Mal]

The Martin I recently bought had a Plate Mate installed by the previous owner, something he advertised as being a positive addition to the overall sound of the guitar. I pulled it out almost immediately. It gave the tone a weird metallic zing that was not pleasant to my ears, and its removal cleared it up right away. I also didn’t see any structural reason for it to be there in the first place. I think people buy into the hype with a lot of this stuff when in reality, it isn’t necessary and often detracts from the sound of the instrument [side eyes the buzz stop].

I've heard that about the sound... but never actually used one. Regardless, Todd, you got lucky, because if you genuinely need a Plate Mate then you really need a new bridge.

Which, as Brad points out, is something any acoustic guitar will need. So are braces, neck resets, etc. Acoustic guitars are nothing like electrics, where the repair and maintenance is really cheap compared to what an acoustic might need. This is probably known by everyone reading this, I would feel bad not saying it just in case.

My only point is to know this, and figure it in to your trade. If you can detect that this guitar will need hundreds of dollars or even thousands of dollars of work anytime soon, then it no longer is the deal you think it is, and you probably should just sell your three guitars and purchase a guitar from a vintage dealer (but not Guitar Center).

The reason I single out Guitar Center is because their return policy on vintage instruments is something like three days, which really isn't enough time to get a guitar evaluated by a real professional in a lot of cases.

Again, I don't think anyone was actually going to do that...

But you know, if you can't evaluate an acoustic, and you can't get it to the shop, you might want a return policy.

[marqueemoon]

I found my vintage 00-17 at Guitar Center, but it was local, and I ended up laying it away and would visit it regularly when making payments, so I was very sure by the time I picked it up. 20 years later I still love it.

But yeah, Guitar Center is generally for the birds, and no way I would buy an instrument from them I couldn’t play first, especially a vintage one.

[Larry Mal]

Yeah, I never bash them much, I actually think they are a fine company and they are every bit as good if not better as the local stores they replaced. A lot of those places were pretty predatory.

It's just that their policy on returns of vintage guitars is so parsimonious compared to the very generous return policy on new.

[pocaloc]

I got it. I’m happy with the move. It sounds amazing. I did my due diligence and tried 3 other J45’s and a Country and Western. Of the five I tried three (including mine) were good and the other two underwhelming. Owning a piece of history is something I find really cool, beyond the sound.

[Larry Mal]

Awesome. Glad that worked out! It looks fantastic.

[pocaloc]

Thanks Larry. I’m in a hotel room with it in Seattle now. Going back to Spokane tomorrow. My trip that was taking me to Seattle was cancelled so I came over just for this. It’s sort of fun strumming this thing, probably all night, in my hotel room. Our first night together…

[marqueemoon]

That is lovely. Congratulations!

[pocaloc]

That is lovely. Congratulations!

Thanks! I bought it at Thunder Road guitars in Seattle.

[marqueemoon]

That is lovely. Congratulations!

Thanks! I bought it at Thunder Road guitars in Seattle.

I know that shop. They don’t seem to push it as much as their electric stuff, but the rare times I make it over there they always have a few amazing acoustics.