Gibson SG tuning stability tips?

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JSett
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Gibson SG tuning stability tips?

Post by JSett » Tue May 31, 2022 9:07 pm

After many many years on exclusively Fender-shaped guitars some of you might have seen I bought an SG. I finally found one with a nice chunky profile and it's a blast to play (and a pleasant change).

I am, however, having the classic issues with tuning stability...which is eminently irritating as all my other guitars are flawless victories in that department.

I've done all the obvious things I can think of: nut is lubricated & cut well - with angles to the rear to allow for string break direction, the tuners have minimal string wraps (approx 1 1/2 on the wound, 2 1/2 on the plain, plain ones wound upwards, all are tight to the post), truss rod adjusted to correct bow and I've even polished the bridge saddles so they're nice and smooth. Strings are wound in the Martin 'locking' fashion.

It still is determined to go flat (and stay there) with any kind of vigorous playing. The low E and A string just through heavy strumming and the G and B with any bend over about a semitone or so.

I have 12-56 strings tuned to Eb standard on it (like every guitar I own, regardless of scale).

Any advice from the hive-mind on this would be great...Googling gives 6872138796 answers and I can't stomach the wretched cess-pools of Gibson forums full of misogynists and MAGA morons :D
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Re: Gibson SG tuning stability tips?

Post by CorporateDisguise » Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:27 am

What’s the break angle over the bridge like? Unlike Fender offsets, Gibsons often have to much break angle, which can cause tuning issues. Maybe try raising the tail piece a bit, and see if that helps.

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Re: Gibson SG tuning stability tips?

Post by LVC » Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:37 am

The obvious solution

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Re: Gibson SG tuning stability tips?

Post by JSett » Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:49 am

CorporateDisguise wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:27 am
What’s the break angle over the bridge like? Unlike Fender offsets, Gibsons often have to much break angle, which can cause tuning issues. Maybe try raising the tail piece a bit, and see if that helps.
its pretty severe to be honest, didn't even think about that. I'll raise it up when I get home and see.
LVC wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:37 am
The obvious solution

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Re: Gibson SG tuning stability tips?

Post by Salfaromeab » Wed Jun 01, 2022 4:08 am

johnnysomersett wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 3:49 am
CorporateDisguise wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:27 am
What’s the break angle over the bridge like? Unlike Fender offsets, Gibsons often have to much break angle, which can cause tuning issues. Maybe try raising the tail piece a bit, and see if that helps.
its pretty severe to be honest, didn't even think about that. I'll raise it up when I get home and see.
I don't own a Gibson but I used to work in a shop and every Gibson we got in we'd wrap the strings over the top of the stopbar, gives them a better break angle and helps with tuning. We'd usually have the stopbar as low as it would go and just wrapped the strings over, worked wonders.
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Re: Gibson SG tuning stability tips?

Post by MechaBulletBill » Wed Jun 01, 2022 6:47 am

yeah a lot of modern gib/epis i've seen have far too steep of a neck angle, so the bridge sits relatively high. combine this with the old apocryphal wisdom of "tailpiece needs to be all the way down" and the strings can foul on the back edge of the bridge.

my greco sg keeps remarkably good tune, or at least it did before the strings that are currently on it went from "fine" to "knackered"

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Re: Gibson SG tuning stability tips?

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:07 am

Well, the Gibson SG is just about one of the worst guitars possible from the viewpoint of tuning stability. You have a thicker neck on there, so that's something, but the neck is barely attached to the guitar and can flex with no effort at all. That's just the nature of the best.

However, there are things you can do. If I recall correctly you bought one of the lower end models, which is fine, but that means you probably have the Nashville bridge on there. If so, look into a locking bridge solution, preferably one that also replaces the cheap grommets in the body that the bridge posts are loosely attached to. I use the Faber Tone-Lock stuff with their iNsert posts.

Also lock down that tailpiece. Frankly, I cannot imagine why raising the tailpiece and making the strings have less tension at points (not sure if less tension is technically accurate) would help at all. But that's just me.

Make sure the nut is cut correctly.

Get locking tuners.

Maybe even a String Butler, they are kind of cool.

At this point you've done what you can do and it's just the neck flexing. It does that on SGs.
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Re: Gibson SG tuning stability tips?

Post by seenoevil II » Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:50 am

I've played gibson style guitars (and very recently actual gibsons) basically forever. While the b string always a jerk, I'm surprised to hear of your trouble with the low strings.

My only two cents here is that I tend to over wrap my strings on the tuning posts. I always misjudge the length and wind up wrapping the E like 5 times. Theoretically, this increases the ratio of the tuning gear as the post is effectively made wider. Shooting from the hip, maybe the round windings are a grippier baring surface than the bare metal post. Perhaps the redundant windings act as a spring that absorbs the tension of strumming and bounces back to pitch without transferring that stress to the tuner or string or wood in a way that it stays flat.

Total speculation. I've just never had a similar issue and I use .11s.
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Re: Gibson SG tuning stability tips?

Post by luau » Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:48 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 7:07 am
Also lock down that tailpiece. Frankly, I cannot imagine why raising the tailpiece and making the strings have less tension at points (not sure if less tension is technically accurate) would help at all. But that's just me.
Friction, basically. The coefficient of friction between string and saddle is constant but the force that friction exerts is a function of the angle of the string over the saddle. You can probably convince yourself of this with a rope and a fence post. The fewer degrees of angle between the two lines of rope wrapped around the post, the more chance for friction to do what it does, which is impede the movement of the rope around the post when you pull on either end of it.

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Re: Gibson SG tuning stability tips?

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Jun 01, 2022 8:56 am

Makes sense to me.

Someone explained to me on here that lowering the tailpiece doesn't increase the tension of the string from the bridge to the nut, but I forget the details. But I had been incorrect in thinking that it might.
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Re: Gibson SG tuning stability tips?

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:06 am

My buddy had an SG Standard for a while, nice looking, great playing guitar.

He showed me how it would go out of tune by him just waving the guitar around, the force would make the neck bend just from that.

So I walked out of there realizing that SGs just don't stay in tune. That one had a pretty slim neck, though.
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Re: Gibson SG tuning stability tips?

Post by JSett » Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:08 am

Thanks Larry, I was hoping you'd chime in as I know you have quite a raft of Gibson experience. I knew there was going to be some issues with just the way they're built contributing (I can hear the notes change pitch as I just move it around, which is wild) but good to know there is some possible solutions to it.

It is indeed a cheap one, the only ones I could work out that had the fat necks were this particular era of Specials and the 4K+ Custom Shops and didn't want to spend more than 1500-2000 (these just happened to be ~600 on the used market). It does indeed have a Nashville bridge (I had to Google it). I was contemplating a roller bridge as I was hoping to add a Vibrola at some point...which is likely to make the problems I already have about 9726491246124012061x worse :fp:

I've seen, now I've been looking around about it, a LOT of people top-wrapping the stoptail - both on SG's and LP's so there might be some logic to it

Off to do some parts digging
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Re: Gibson SG tuning stability tips?

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:40 am

johnnysomersett wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:08 am
Thanks Larry, I was hoping you'd chime in as I know you have quite a raft of Gibson experience. I knew there was going to be some issues with just the way they're built contributing (I can hear the notes change pitch as I just move it around, which is wild) but good to know there is some possible solutions to it.

Yeah, but I don't have a ton of experience with SGs, though. I owned a Norlin era one like twenty eight years ago. It sucked, totally narrow nut on there.

But yeah, all I've been able to conclude is just that tuning instability is the name of the game there. I mean, if you can't even move the guitar without the notes detuning...

I would still buy one and almost did this weekend.
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Re: Gibson SG tuning stability tips?

Post by Maggieo » Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:05 pm

I stretch the living shit out of the strings on my SG Special. Ive also got a stop-tail with the strings over the top. It keeps tune better than my Les Pauls.
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Re: Gibson SG tuning stability tips?

Post by stevejamsecono » Wed Jun 01, 2022 1:37 pm

Maggieo wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 12:05 pm
I stretch the living shit out of the strings on my SG Special. Ive also got a stop-tail with the strings over the top. It keeps tune better than my Les Pauls.
This. Stretching the strings after restringing has kept most of my guitars in excellent tuning since I realized it was something you could do.
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