NAGD - Martin - what did i do?

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Re: NAGD - Martin - what did i do?

Post by Embenny » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:11 pm

MKR wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:45 pm
interesting. I too have never given humidity any thought. especially since i have had zero issues with my guitars in the 10 years i have lived here. Still i am going to look into humidifiers i think. I don't even know what it a guitar humidifier looks like. We have humidifiers that we put in our kids' rooms when theyre sick but thats about all i know on the subject lol.

Also my epiphone acoustic is cheap, but it's not that cheap. Its an EJ-160 with a pickup and volume and tone knobs on the front of the body. Definitely feels like nice guitar in my hands. It has pretty much the same build characteristics as the martin (solid spruce top, laminate sides and back). It does have a thick coat of poly lacquer all over including the neck which is why the martin feels so 'naked' to me still.
Do you have forced-air heating? Radiant? Do you lived in an apartment or a house?

Sometimes things like apartments or multi-unit buildings will have a central humidifier built into their furnace and you'll be receiving humidified air without realizing it.

Really tight modern buildings without an air exchanger running can also retain a lot of moisture in the winter.

Old, leaky single-family dwellings with forced-air furnaces are absurdly dry in Canadian winter, sometimes in the single-digit RH range.

My parents' home was one of those places that had a naturally higher RH without trying, and I grew up with a solid-top classical and acoustic that suffered no damage.

Then I moved to an apartment in an older, leaky building with forced-air heating and the very first winter, I had that Taylor split in half.

Getting an adjustable hygrometer like this one is invaluable in figuring out whether you need to be worrying or not.

You take a bottle cap, fill it with table salt, and drip just enough water onto it to make it a damp slurry without visible standing water. You then seal it for 12-24h in a ziploc or airtight tupperware container with your hygrometer. A salt slurry will stabilize at exactly 75% RH. Your hygrometer will likely read something different. Make note of that difference, and when you open up the bag, there's a little button you can hit on the back that lets you compensate for that difference. I.e. if it was reading 71% in the ziploc, you follow the instructions for adding +4% to the calibration.

You can now sit it in the room with the guitar and see what your RH is. Below 35% is the danger territory.

There are in-case humidifiers. Even if one is advertised as being meant to go in the soundhole, don't ever do that. If they leak or drip they'll do more harm than they were preventing in the first place. Stick it in the accessory compartment of a hardshell case and they'll humidify the guitar that's kept in there.

But, far more effective and beneficial for your health and that of your guitars is a room humidifier. There are three types - warm mist, cool mist, and ultrasonic. Don't ever buy warm mist or ultrasonic. Warm mist is just boiling water and letting the steam rise into the room. It will condense on nearby surfaces, especially cool metal ones, and can cause damage to electronics, guitar hardware, and your home itself if it's condensing on a nearby wall. Ultrasonic is terrible unless you're shelling out for distilled water or a reverse-osmosis system to feed it, as it generates tiny water particles that keep their dissolved mineral content, so when they land on surfaces they evaporate and leave tiny bits of mineral dust on everything that builds up over time and makes things like the crevices of guitar hardware or nearby electronics filthy.

Cool mist is where it's at, as it uses a replaceable filter to wick water upwards and then just blows a fan through the moist filter to evaporate some of it and distribute it into the room. That means that you can use tapwater, and the minerals will crystalize on the washable/replaceable filter instead of on the items in the room. And, since there's no supersaturated air or steam involved, it doesn't condense on surfaces, unless you've got a poorly insulated window and a crazy high indoor RH (in which case the windows will sweat).

With reasonable-quality windows in Ottawa weather, I find the 37-42% RH range to be ideal. 40-50% is what people will tell you from a pure guitar perspective, but 50% will encourage window sweating during those -20C nights unless you have high-end modern windows. 37-42% keeps the guitars happy and doesn't encourage the problems that come with moist windows.

Your sinuses, throat, and skin will also be infinitely more happy at that RH range than at the 10% RH you can often encounter at this time of year in Canada. Any wood floors or furniture will also be happier (you get warped hardwood floors from the extreme contraction-expansion cycles of seasonal changes with unregulated RH). Wooden guitar necks need regular adjustment and develop fret sprout from similar cycles.

But spend the $40 on a hygrometer first, take the day to calibrate it properly, and find out what's going on first. Like I said, you might be in a tight home or one with a central humidifier you didn't realize existed, and you might be sitting at an ideal RH already.

Edit: Larry apparently just said all this, much less verbosely as I was typing my diatribe against dry Canadian winter air :D
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Re: NAGD - Martin - what did i do?

Post by MKR » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:29 pm

mbene085 wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:11 pm

But spend the $40 on a hygrometer first, take the day to calibrate it properly, and find out what's going on first. Like I said, you might be in a tight home or one with a central humidifier you didn't realize existed, and you might be sitting at an ideal RH already.

Edit: Larry apparently just said all this, much less verbosely as I was typing my diatribe against dry Canadian winter air :D
my place definitely fits the old leaky single home with forced air billing. I have a 1920s build semi. i had a new furnace put in 4-5 years ago and i;m pretty sure there's no humidifier quality to it. still we have maintained the house pretty well and have never really felt significant dryness issues. like i said my guitars have held up perfect over the years.

I just finished purchasing a hygrometer though. That will let me know what's what i guess.

thanks for the detailed advise!

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Re: NAGD - Martin - what did i do?

Post by Jaguar018 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:33 pm

I just got a humidifier based off all this same advice from the same guys on my ‘dry Martin guitar’ thread. 8) :D

Interestingly, about 10 years ago or so I bought a used 12 string Marin from the Guitar Center, but I returned it the next day or so. I couldn’t deal with that massive neck.

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Re: NAGD - Martin - what did i do?

Post by Embenny » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:37 pm

MKR wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:29 pm
mbene085 wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:11 pm

But spend the $40 on a hygrometer first, take the day to calibrate it properly, and find out what's going on first. Like I said, you might be in a tight home or one with a central humidifier you didn't realize existed, and you might be sitting at an ideal RH already.

Edit: Larry apparently just said all this, much less verbosely as I was typing my diatribe against dry Canadian winter air :D
my place definitely fits the old leaky single home with forced air billing. I have a 1920s build semi. i had a new furnace put in 4-5 years ago and i;m pretty sure there's no humidifier quality to it. still we have maintained the house pretty well and have never really felt significant dryness issues. like i said my guitars have held up perfect over the years.

I just finished purchasing a hygrometer though. That will let me know what's what i guess.

thanks for the detailed advise!
Glad to help a fellow Canuck.

Even if the one you bought turns out to not be adjustable (check the instructions to be sure), you can still calibrate it with the salt and just remember to add or subtract whatever percentage from it when you look at the reading.

Long story short, I ended up with five hygrometers and worst is a full 10% off the true RH and just plain stops reading any lower at 23%, so you can be at 5% thinking it's 23% or at 30% thinking it's 40%. It's the one built into my HRV control unit so I can't be rid of it, but I just go ahead and ignore that one. My Oasis hygrometers live in the rooms where I store and play guitar and let me know what's really up.
Jaguar018 wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:33 pm
I just got a humidifier based off all this same advice from the same guys on my ‘dry Martin guitar’ thread. 8) :D

Interestingly, about 10 years ago or so I bought a used 12 string Marin from the Guitar Center, but I returned it the next day or so. I couldn’t deal with that massive neck.
Glad I'm not preaching into the void, haha. It's all worth it if someone saves a guitar.

What did your RH in your house turn out to be? Hope you're breathing easier with the humidifier.
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Re: NAGD - Martin - what did i do?

Post by Jaguar018 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:58 pm

mbene085 wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:37 pm
Glad I'm not preaching into the void, haha. It's all worth it if someone saves a guitar.

What did your RH in your house turn out to be? Hope you're breathing easier with the humidifier.
I haven’t got a hygrometer yet but it’s on the way. The humidifier is chugging along at 60%. It’s not going to be a tough sell to get one of those fancier Venta humidifier/purifier models for the house as my wife is all for things like that. BUT we’re getting ready to move this spring, so I don’t want to get any ‘big unit’ stuff until after that all happens.

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Re: NAGD - Martin - what did i do?

Post by Larry Mal » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:17 pm

MKR wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:29 pm


my place definitely fits the old leaky single home with forced air billing. I have a 1920s build semi. i had a new furnace put in 4-5 years ago and i;m pretty sure there's no humidifier quality to it. still we have maintained the house pretty well and have never really felt significant dryness issues. like i said my guitars have held up perfect over the years.

I just finished purchasing a hygrometer though. That will let me know what's what i guess.

thanks for the detailed advise!
If your furnace is that new then adding a humidifier to it should be relatively easily done.

Anyway, your hygrometer might reveal that you don't have much of a problem at all, but if your humidity gets below 35% then I would humidify. I am going to be skeptical to think that in Canada with forced air that you don't need humidity added, but regardless, your hygrometer will give you the information. Remember that when the temperature is below freezing outside, all the moisture is frozen and locked up, and the air is bone dry.

My house is not big and is easy to humidify, so I am just running one. In the old apartment, I had radiator heat, which would dry the air out to an incredible degree so I ran more.

There are different types of humidifiers, all with various drawbacks and benefits. The warm mist is germ free and good for sick kids, it's not the best humidifier for guitars as it doesn't disperse all that well, and the maintenance can be annoying.

An ultrasonic humidifier is a good choice, however, they spread a fine white dust over things.

A cool mist is a good all around choice, be aware though that they require cleaning. Some have an ultraviolet light, mine does, which kills the bacteria as it passes into your air. Clearly you don't want to be spewing a bunch of bacteria all around so you'll need to clean them regularly.

Anyway, here's an article about it.

It's not just your guitars that need stable humidity levels, though, you do and your plants do, also.
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Re: NAGD - Martin - what did i do?

Post by windmill » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:38 pm

My low end Martin has one of the very thin finishes.

Over time, the areas that are frequently touched become shiny.
So most of the neck is now shiny, the areas that rest on the knee and forearm are shiny , and where I pick the guitar at the base of the neck the front of the guitar has developed shiny patches.

Perhaps yours is the same.
Rub a small area on the back of the neck and see if shines up.

HTH. :)

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Re: NAGD - Martin - what did i do?

Post by Embenny » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:45 pm

That's actually a trick people used to do with the Taylor 300- and 400-series back when they were satin Sapele and Ovangkol.

I don't know anything about Martins so I didn't want to hazard a guess as to the nature of their satin finish, but in the case of Taylors, the satin finish was just their gloss finish minus a buffing job. That's why it was cheaper - less labour. The spraying was done by CNC robots and the buffing was done by humans.

That meant you could take a buffing wheel to one (if you had the skills and knew how to not burn through a finish) and turn your satin budget Taylor into a gloss, less-budget-looking Taylor.

But the ultra-thin hand-rubbed varnish on my Halcyon was different. The grain was totally open, so if you tried buffing it, you'd just hit raw wood. No part of that guitar ever shined up from use.

Sounds like Martin might be using the former and not the latter though.
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Re: NAGD - Martin - what did i do?

Post by PorkyPrimeCut » Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:43 am

I'm surprised you guys didn't see Zhivago's post a few years back, showing what happened to his beautiful 50s Gibson J-50 after his luthier posted the guitar back to him with the end strap button in place. It cracked & split in exactly the same way as pictured earlier in this thread. If it was mine I'd probably have had a heart attack!!
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Re: NAGD - Martin - what did i do?

Post by Unicorn Warrior » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:31 am

I feel like some sort of barbarian having never worried about humidity for my acoustics. So far, no issues I guess

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Re: NAGD - Martin - what did i do?

Post by Embenny » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:23 am

Unicorn Warrior wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:31 am
I feel like some sort of barbarian having never worried about humidity for my acoustics. So far, no issues I guess
Lots of people never worry about nutrition and never noticed any issues.

Doesn't mean they're not on the brink of a major issue, or living with things they didn't recognize as issues.

Also doesn't mean they haven't been lucky and been ok the whole time by chance.

Some people consume a perfectly balanced diet without trying, and some people live in guitar-friendly RH without trying.

I was one of those lucky people, until I moved, and suddenly I wasn't.
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Re: NAGD - Martin - what did i do?

Post by mediocreplayer » Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:43 am

I am not a fan of gloss finishes, and even more so on acoustic guitars. Your guitar looks great.

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Re: NAGD - Martin - what did i do?

Post by Larry Mal » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:02 am

mbene085 wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 7:23 am
Unicorn Warrior wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:31 am
I feel like some sort of barbarian having never worried about humidity for my acoustics. So far, no issues I guess
Some people consume a perfectly balanced diet without trying, and some people live in guitar-friendly RH without trying.
I feel like the challenges of keeping a guitar humidified during winter is much different in Kentucky and Missouri than it is anywhere in Canada. It's not that we don't get freezing days or have to run our drying heat plenty, but the freezing days are shorter in duration seasonally and are punctuated by days above freezing.

I could be wrong about Kentucky (a beautiful state), I don't know the state all that well and in the mountains there it might well be much different from what I see here.

For instance, here we will have a high of 35 Fahrenheit/1.6 Celsius, and there is a chance of rain. It will be a cold and gray rain, but it will be rain.
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Re: NAGD - Martin - what did i do?

Post by Embenny » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:15 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:02 am

I feel like the challenges of keeping a guitar humidified during winter is much different in Kentucky and Missouri than it is anywhere in Canada. It's not that we don't get freezing days or have to run our drying heat plenty, but the freezing days are shorter in duration seasonally and are punctuated by days above freezing.

I could be wrong about Kentucky (a beautiful state), I don't know the state all that well and in the mountains there it might well be much different from what I see here.

For instance, here we will have a high of 35 Fahrenheit/1.6 Celsius, and there is a chance of rain. It will be a cold and gray rain, but it will be rain.
Exactly, hence my nutrition analogy. It's a lot easier to maintain a balanced diet year-round in the Mediterranean without actively thinking about it than it is in Canada, too.

Some people win the location lottery with this type of stuff and others need to put a little more effort in is all.
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Re: NAGD - Martin - what did i do?

Post by Jaguar018 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 8:57 am

I thought I was set, humidity-wise in the mid-Atlantic area. But it turns out that my music room/office area in the basement of my house was a lot drier than I realized.

My Martin looked fine to my eyes, but to the trained eyes of the guys at the guitar shop it was dried out and in need of some re-humidification. [I feel like it was all pretty obvious and not one of those car mechanic swindle jobs with fake issues.]

I think it makes sense to buy a hygrometer. They are quite inexpensive, and that little investment can really help your guitars, along with everything else if you end up getting a decent humidifier.

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