The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by mediocreplayer » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:55 pm

seenoevil II wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:21 am

Im personally realizing that so long as a guitar meets 3 criteria, then literally all guitars are the same to me.
I 100% agree with this but I will remind both of us that this is exactly the premise of this thread -- lusting after guitars for no compelling reason. I am guitar shopping like crazy these days and I almost don't play guitar any more.

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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by seenoevil II » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:01 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:42 pm
Ah, that sucks so hard. I was thinking about your NGD thread and where it would be. I also had guessed that it was some kind of Starfire, but I don't know much about the model to really guess more exactly.
It's such a shame because this thing was in beautiful shape otherwise. I very carefully weighed keeping and having it repaired. But it was the unknown unknowns of neck joint unstable like that. Every time I looked at the lacquer around the joint, something was happening that wasn't there before.

Idk if it was the packing job or ups, but if thing arrived intact, you'd all have had a feast for the eyes as this thing was the best looking guitar I've ever seen.

Like I said, I'm taking a break from guitar hunting. Ain't no shows to play my inferiority complex inducing guitars at anyway. Seeing a vintage guild made me appreciate the Newark street series more as they did seem to sweat the details and get pretty close. I saw somewhere that somebody retro fitted DeArmonds into a NS starfire built for hamburgers. That might be where this story goes.

USA made or no is still up in the air, but I do think I've realized that vintage isn't for me. If Korea can make world dominating pop music, smartphones and cars, I guess they can make my guild guitar too.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Embenny » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:19 pm

seenoevil II wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:01 pm
Larry Mal wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:42 pm
Ah, that sucks so hard. I was thinking about your NGD thread and where it would be. I also had guessed that it was some kind of Starfire, but I don't know much about the model to really guess more exactly.
It's such a shame because this thing was in beautiful shape otherwise. I very carefully weighed keeping and having it repaired. But it was the unknown unknowns of neck joint unstable like that. Every time I looked at the lacquer around the joint, something was happening that wasn't there before.

Idk if it was the packing job or ups, but if thing arrived intact, you'd all have had a feast for the eyes as this thing was the best looking guitar I've ever seen.

Like I said, I'm taking a break from guitar hunting. Ain't no shows to play my inferiority complex inducing guitars at anyway. Seeing a vintage guild made me appreciate the Newark street series more as they did seem to sweat the details and get pretty close. I saw somewhere that somebody retro fitted DeArmonds into a NS starfire built for hamburgers. That might be where this story goes.

USA made or no is still up in the air, but I do think I've realized that vintage isn't for me. If Korea can make world dominating pop music, smartphones and cars, I guess they can make my guild guitar too.
That's a real bummer all around.

As a DeArmond appreciator, I can vouch that TV Jones' T-Armonds are great pickups, and they come in any form factor you like. Looking at the HB-equipped Newark St models, you could drop in a set of the Filtertron-sized T-Armonds with the PAF-sized mounting rings without any issues. They'd sound and look right IMO.

Just something to think about.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:32 pm

My buddy contacted me about what should he get in a new guitar, and I steered him loosely towards one of those brand new Starfires that sells for about $1,100. I later got to play it and record it, they are tremendous guitars.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by seenoevil II » Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:45 pm

mediocreplayer wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:55 pm
seenoevil II wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:21 am

Im personally realizing that so long as a guitar meets 3 criteria, then literally all guitars are the same to me.
I 100% agree with this but I will remind both of us that this is exactly the premise of this thread -- lusting after guitars for no compelling reason. I am guitar shopping like crazy these days and I almost don't play guitar any more.
Yeah, it comes in waves. Usually an experience like this quiets it for a while. It is about the hunt in a large way. After I got my JM, I can honestly say I had no GAS for about 5 years. But it's a mere Squier with lots of problems. Doubling on the jm by investing in a fender isn't as appealing nowadays as they've become cartoonishly ubiquitous in certain contexts.

But, whatever, it's a problem without a solution. The objective of the game is the playing of it. You'll always want another guitar if your the kind of person who wants guitars. And a whole industry and culture has grown up around this quest. But unlike the GAS that photographers get, guitar gas is 1000000% subjective. Beyond a guitar that's literally broken, once you strip away symbolic value, culturally defined values and hierarchies, and laceratingly specific personal preference, all guitars really are on equal footing.

Retracted<<This clarity is helped along when you notice how little guitars matter in broader culture now. They've become rather niche. Guitar music is going the way of saxophone music. Never gone, but never again at the fore. >>retracted

But I suspect I'll forget all of this and relapse in no time at all.

It's petty thoughts that get the ball rolling. It isn't "gee, a gibson would provide reliably excellent playing experiences that would allow unfettered creativity." It's more like, "crap, that a-hole Kevin from college has a gibson for his sublime cover band, while I'm trying to explore compositional possibilities on the same damn epiphone I've had since I was 15. What am I even doing with my life? If he has one, I darn tooting should. "
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:33 pm

I am 17 years older than my wife, and she listened to Sublime when she was in high school or whatever. Fuck, I mock that. I make fun of her so hard. Sublime is the fucking worst. She dug up a bunch of her old road trip CDs and Sublime was on there and I just fell the fuck out.

If I sell my ES-335, I'll offer it to you at the same $2k I bought it for.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Embenny » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:45 pm

You mean you aren't a badfish, too, Larry?

That's a shame.

On the subject of the psychology of GAS, I noticed I was developing some GAS for the first time in many months. I've been purging guitars (happily, too), and don't even want any specific guitar right now, but I noticed I was in the mood for a new guitar.

It snowed a few days ago, a good dumping that has yet to melt.

It made me realize that I got my first electric guitar in wintertime, and some part of my brain connects those two things. I remember coming home from the music store, so excited to play something modern-sounding instead of my classical guitar which was what I started with. I remember the neck of the guitar feeling a bit cold from sitting in the trunk on the ride home. Even the tolex of my new amp was a little cold when I first plugged it in.

The difference, of course, is that I now have way too many electric guitars as it stands, so I will continue to offload them. Besides, my last three acquisitions were two lutes and a 120 year-old Romantic guitar, so if anything, you could say I currently have classical GAS.

I'll see myself out...
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by seenoevil II » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:49 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:33 pm

If I sell my ES-335, I'll offer it to you at the same $2k I bought it for.
I would like to believe that it was my shitting on Sublime that made you decide this.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by seenoevil II » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:51 am

mbene085 wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:45 pm

I'll see myself out...
Go from this place and never return.

Maybe this is why I struggle in buying guitars. My first real guitar was a surprise gift from my family during a week's long battle with a stomach virus.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:45 am

seenoevil II wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:49 am


I would like to believe that it was my shitting on Sublime that made you decide this.
I can only say that the mention of Sublime upsets me very much and the prospect of hearing any fires up my fight or flight animal impulses.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by BoringPostcards » Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:23 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:45 am
seenoevil II wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:49 am


I would like to believe that it was my shitting on Sublime that made you decide this.
I can only say that the mention of Sublime upsets me very much and the prospect of hearing any fires up my fight or flight animal impulses.
So, you're saying you have no Santeria or crystal ball? You had a million dollars, but you spent it all?
Go and find that Hannah, Bruh.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by seenoevil II » Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:44 pm

A little epilog to this thread in light of 2 developments.

1: Covid inflation-mania means es-335s have jumped up a notch in price again. Where in 2019-20 you could find the occasional used model for $1800-2100, in 2021 the used ones start at $2500 and often cost as much as a brand new guitar at 3k.

This is a bummer for me personally and really puts the nail in that particular coffin. It also makes me turning down a $2000 unit last year sting a tiny bit.

The psychological aspect of it is really brought into focus by the second development.

2. Epiphone's inspired by Gibson refresh really closed the gap between a $600 and $3000 guitar. CTS pots, upgraded humbuckers, fingerboard binding, etc. It seems like it's really being explicitly framed as Epiphone making as good a guitar that large scale overseas production can make for a reasonable price (essentially how everything else we buy is manufactured). While Gibson is a premium luxury item. That's not a change for Gibson, what's different now is just how functionally similar the two lines are now.

I haven't played any of the IBG guitars yet, so I can't say if I'd like them. It's an interesting time and situation for thinking about the value of things. Before the import epiphone days, Gibsons were expensive, but were also gorgeous and well playing guitars (more often than not). Back then you payed less, you got less. Your budget guitar was a Teisco with 1/2" action and weedy sounding pick ups. Nowadays, with these $600 epiphones, a healthy, well set up unit will play and sound very similar to the 3k version. They may be a bit... uninspiring, but they'll do the thing- they'll be an es-335 or SG or whatever.

So really, the intangibles, the psychology is kind of the only difference left, and the only thing for Gibson to market.

Anyway. It's interesting to think about. Especially now that the guitar hero has gone the way of the steam train. There's no old grey whistle test, or top of the pops making kids druel at the spoils of stardom. It's just working musicians, arty weirdos toiling in obscurity and gear collectors. The value equation has never looked like this before.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by MrFingers » Wed Jun 02, 2021 12:45 am

For that 335-situation, and the Epiphone stopgap... You can also go for one of the Original Epiphone models, the Rivièra. Gibson never made those themselves under their own name, so...

Image£

And it's something different for a change. A 335 is rather standard, predictable and dare I say boring. A Rivièra on the other hand.

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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:21 am

I do like those Rivieras quite a bit.

I guess prices have crept up! I had every intention of showing how one can buy ES-335s for $2000 still and I don't seem to be correct, although you can still find those ES-335 Studio guitars out there for that price. I guess I got in while the getting was good all of eight months ago.

I don't find ES-335s very boring at the moment, it turns out I really like that ES shape and feel. I will say that on the newer Gibsons, including the one I have, they have been putting in some incredible pickups there. Mine has the "Memphis Historic Spec" which is just marketing bullshit but what it translates to is a very low wind and high quality PAF.

And what that translates to is an incredibly versatile pickup, it will do clean and chiming and it will distort very well also.

I had always read that ES-335s were the "one guitar that can do it all" and I never really gave it all that much thought, I am starting to feel that I understand that a little better. They can be very versatile guitars that are maybe kind of ubiquitous due to that very nature, and I guess that could be boring.

I'm not trying to sell anyone on the concept of them or anything, and I understand the whole "boring" complaint since I felt that way also and my gateway to the ES lineup was an ES-330, I guess I thought that I wouldn't be caught dead playing my grandpa's blues guitar but I would be happy playing my grandpa's jazz guitar. But really I just thought that the 330 would have a lot in common with the Jazzmaster, which it really doesn't.

Over time I warmed up to the concepts a bit, I guess.

As far as the psychology of warming up to a Gibson, well, sure. They are the legend and they made the great instruments of the 20th century to a large degree. It would be hard to think of a 20th century musical genre in which Gibson was not very well represented, from bluegrass to reggae to blues to funk and all kinds of rock and roll.

Put that in tandem with the simple fact that marketing absolutely works (on everyone), and of course you have an instrument that people want. It's priced slightly out of reach of a lot of people so you have to work for it a bit, but you can get it... it's not priced so far out that you can never afford it like a Rolls Royce or something.

This kind of marketing is incredibly common and effective. Epiphone is the Chevy and Gibson is the Cadillac, there's supposed to be a prestige when you finally afford the higher level.

Of course it works, which is why companies have different marketing tiers all the time, it plays on your concepts of pleasure and reward. Fundamental and immutable.

Now, this only works if the end result is perceived as worth it, if your Cadillac breaks down on the highway right after you traded in your Chevrolet then your system of pleasure and reward might not recover and the marketing will have been ineffective. This is where Gibson has a hard time, frankly there's a lot of backlash against Gibson out there for a variety of reasons and their marketing isn't as strong as it could be (it's also frequently argued that the product isn't as strong as it can be). Also Gibson, like General Motors, has to make the entry level Epiphone to be of very high quality like Chevrolet, otherwise there's no appeal to moving to the upper echelons. That means that a lot of people might just stay at the purely entry level packages since they are actually very good and very good value.

So, why do you want a Gibson? Well, you have been successfully marketed to, which simply is what it is... you are successfully marketed to all the time, there's nothing inherently wrong with it and it's actually a beneficial thing all around assuming that you know and accept the simple fact that marketing works and make your decisions around your full understanding.

I don't try and really resist Gibson's marketing a whole lot, since I get what's going on, I enjoy having a relationship with the company and the product, and the product is absolutely excellent so I'm not being persuaded to buy something that does not represent the value I thought it was.

I enjoy marketing, though. Y'all may have seen my post about my graduate degree in cyber security, but back in the day I took a few classes towards what I was planning to turn into a graduate degree in marketing. I like it.
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Re: The Psychology of GASing for a Gibson (es-335)

Post by seenoevil II » Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:25 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 6:21 am
I do like those Rivieras quite a bit.

I guess prices have crept up! I had every intention of showing how one can buy ES-335s for $2000 still and I don't seem to be correct, although you can still find those ES-335 Studio guitars out there for that price. I guess I got in while the getting was good all of eight months ago.

I don't find ES-335s very boring at the moment, it turns out I really like that ES shape and feel. I will say that on the newer Gibsons, including the one I have, they have been putting in some incredible pickups there. Mine has the "Memphis Historic Spec" which is just marketing bullshit but what it translates to is a very low wind and high quality PAF.

And what that translates to is an incredibly versatile pickup, it will do clean and chiming and it will distort very well also.

I had always read that ES-335s were the "one guitar that can do it all" and I never really gave it all that much thought, I am starting to feel that I understand that a little better. They can be very versatile guitars that are maybe kind of ubiquitous due to that very nature, and I guess that could be boring.

I'm not trying to sell anyone on the concept of them or anything, and I understand the whole "boring" complaint since I felt that way also and my gateway to the ES lineup was an ES-330, I guess I thought that I wouldn't be caught dead playing my grandpa's blues guitar but I would be happy playing my grandpa's jazz guitar. But really I just thought that the 330 would have a lot in common with the Jazzmaster, which it really doesn't.

Over time I warmed up to the concepts a bit, I guess.

As far as the psychology of warming up to a Gibson, well, sure. They are the legend and they made the great instruments of the 20th century to a large degree. It would be hard to think of a 20th century musical genre in which Gibson was not very well represented, from bluegrass to reggae to blues to funk and all kinds of rock and roll.

Put that in tandem with the simple fact that marketing absolutely works (on everyone), and of course you have an instrument that people want. It's priced slightly out of reach of a lot of people so you have to work for it a bit, but you can get it... it's not priced so far out that you can never afford it like a Rolls Royce or something.

This kind of marketing is incredibly common and effective. Epiphone is the Chevy and Gibson is the Cadillac, there's supposed to be a prestige when you finally afford the higher level.

Of course it works, which is why companies have different marketing tiers all the time, it plays on your concepts of pleasure and reward. Fundamental and immutable.

Now, this only works if the end result is perceived as worth it, if your Cadillac breaks down on the highway right after you traded in your Chevrolet then your system of pleasure and reward might not recover and the marketing will have been ineffective. This is where Gibson has a hard time, frankly there's a lot of backlash against Gibson out there for a variety of reasons and their marketing isn't as strong as it could be (it's also frequently argued that the product isn't as strong as it can be). Also Gibson, like General Motors, has to make the entry level Epiphone to be of very high quality like Chevrolet, otherwise there's no appeal to moving to the upper echelons. That means that a lot of people might just stay at the purely entry level packages since they are actually very good and very good value.

So, why do you want a Gibson? Well, you have been successfully marketed to, which simply is what it is... you are successfully marketed to all the time, there's nothing inherently wrong with it and it's actually a beneficial thing all around assuming that you know and accept the simple fact that marketing works and make your decisions around your full understanding.

I don't try and really resist Gibson's marketing a whole lot, since I get what's going on, I enjoy having a relationship with the company and the product, and the product is absolutely excellent so I'm not being persuaded to buy something that does not represent the value I thought it was.

I enjoy marketing, though. Y'all may have seen my post about my graduate degree in cyber security, but back in the day I took a few classes towards what I was planning to turn into a graduate degree in marketing. I like it.
Yeah, you're right. This whole thread (besides a few tangents) had been trying to pin down he invisible force that causes one to desire something that, in a purely rational appraisal, is the wrong choice. That invisible force is simply the result of deft marketing. Of course, we do a lot of their work for them with gear snobbery and such.

I just worry that with ever increasing income inequality, that the Gibson version will just be permanently out of reach for huge swaths of the guitar playing public.

In a way, cheap though high quality copies are a wonderful thing. Even the most ardent Gibson fan boy wouldn't put a healthy epiphone below say 75% the quality of its Gibson archetype. This means that billions of people in the developing world and the West's permanent underclass can know the joy of a functioning Gibson (or Fender or whatever) style instrument.

I know that the narrative and the marketing has it so that the Gibson is the genuine article, and the Epiphone is the faithful though inferior imitation. But is the Gibson the "real" version? If Martians or future archeologists evaluate the situation, which version of a guitar would they call the "main" or "real" version. The Epiphones out outnumber the Gibsons at this point, are played and known and heard by more people, have more durable finishes. Perhaps is the grand historical narrative that is applied to the 335, the fact that they were first invented by gibson in 1958, then produced in vast quantities and lower quality by Epiphone later on will be an interesting though insignificant footnote.

Maybe anyway.

All I know is that unless wages (including my own) jump up to catch these increases, they might as well cost $30,000. And if a vague claim to authenticity or validity and a real though modest jump in quality is all that's pulling working people from $600 to $3000+, in 2021 or 2030, they might be trouble. Again maybe.

For me, for now, I'm very happy to be in a deepening love affair with my Guild x-175. It seems to be outside a lot of this psy-op business. It's spendy enough to be acceptable to even the snobbiest gear snobs, though cheap enough to be replaced. Mostly though, it's a rad guitar (I mean, pretty cool, could be cooler, like it could have Dearmonds, but it's the good enough guitar).


... but that little voice is still there...
If it wasn't for disappointment, I wouldn't have any appointments.

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