We've decided Firebirds are not offset, right?

For guitars of the straight waisted variety (or reverse offset).
Post Reply
User avatar
JVG
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1401
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:54 pm
Location: Sydney, Straya

Re: We've decided Firebirds are not offset, right?

Post by JVG » Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:48 am

sal paradise wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:29 am
I don’t often get on my soapbox, and this is total first-world problems. Being left-handed in a right-handed world is not only constantly surprisingly tricky (even at 40, things still stick out as not working easily for me), it’s downright depressing sometimes. Kettles, scissors, tin openers, veg peelers. You name it, we’ve had to figure out a way of using something that right-handers find intuitive and natural. Even the tube ticket gates are designed for right handers.

The worst part is the lack of empathy from right-handed people. Now I know that racism, sexism, homophobia & transphobia etc are far bigger problems. But it’s the same problem- people can’t imagine being something they’re not.
An emotional response, but i’ll join you on that soapbox!

In the world of guitars and guitar parts, it sucks that most manufacturers either don’t bother making lefty stuff, or charge a premium for it. Yes, i know the financial rationale for this, but imagine if you applied this principle to other situations, e.g. charging people in wheelchairs extra to visit an art gallery (random example), because of the cost involved in building the accessibility ramp. Manufacturers should build any extra costs into their overall fee schedule, rather than just hitting the lefties with it.

You could argue that lefty discrimination (particularly with respect to “luxury items” like guitars) is an order of magnitude less important than racism, sexism, and many other -isms, but the point is that it still exists, and it's everywhere.

Sorry to derail…Firebirds rule!

User avatar
Chippertheripper
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:53 pm
Location: SE mass

Re: We've decided Firebirds are not offset, right?

Post by Chippertheripper » Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:22 am

sal paradise wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:29 am
It’s a total bs myth that left-handed people playing right handed are better guitarists.

Yeah, there’s a few older guitarists who are lefties that play right. Left handed people are like 1 in 10, yet they are over-represented in creative industries. With boomers having less access to left-handed guitars in the 50s/60s, goes some way to explaining the “Clapton phenomenon” of over-achieving lefties playing righty.
tribi9 wrote:
Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:01 pm
Leftie playing a left handed guitar = Rightie playing a right handed guitar .
This. There’s a million amazing rh players.

I don’t often get on my soapbox, and this is total first-world problems. Being left-handed in a right-handed world is not only constantly surprisingly tricky (even at 40, things still stick out as not working easily for me), it’s downright depressing sometimes. Kettles, scissors, tin openers, veg peelers. You name it, we’ve had to figure out a way of using something that right-handers find intuitive and natural. Even the tube ticket gates are designed for right handers.

The worst part is the lack of empathy from right-handed people. Now I know that racism, sexism, homophobia & transphobia etc are far bigger problems. But it’s the same problem- people can’t imagine being something they’re not.

Left handed people are supposedly either more likely to be over-achievers or underachievers. Not sure how that’s measured. But. The point being is that left-handed people also have a far higher suicide rate and statistically die younger.

So spare us a moment every now & again, please :'(
I’d like to add every single power tool to that list. Every chopsaw, miter saw, skilsaw, drill, and most tool belts are all built and/or designed for right handed users.

User avatar
JSett
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 8803
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:33 pm
Location: Old Hampshire, Old England

Re: We've decided Firebirds are not offset, right?

Post by JSett » Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:26 am

My grandfather was a leftie and forced to use his right at school in the 30s/40s. He ended up being abnormally ambidextrous and could everything equally well with both - including writing and painting (his job, he was an artist). I remember thinking, as a child, that he had superpowers as he effortlessly switched between both hands while drawing and painting!

My brother is a leftie too, he is ambidextrous playing pool and darts but nothing else.

I can shoot a shotgun from either shoulder, that's as close as I can get :D
Silly Rabbit, don't you know scooped mids are for kids?

User avatar
OffYourFace
Mods
Mods
Posts: 13681
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 2:59 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: We've decided Firebirds are not offset, right?

Post by OffYourFace » Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:22 pm

I had a '66 NR but couldn't get along with it. Even tho it's a smaller scale, it feels longer than a JM. I didn't like the way it sat on me while standing or sitting. I sold it to member dain years ago and he still owns and loves it. I'm only 5' 10" and he's at least 6' so I think that's why.

I love the sound of them though.

If anyone is looking for good FB pickups or good mini HBs in general, my friend Chris at Black Cat Guitars makes the best ones IMO. That is if you want vintage accurate. The FBs are unlisted and are a special order FYI. His P90s and HBs are really good too.

Black Cat

User avatar
JSett
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 8803
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:33 pm
Location: Old Hampshire, Old England

Re: We've decided Firebirds are not offset, right?

Post by JSett » Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:50 am

OffYourFace wrote:
Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:22 pm
I had a '66 NR but couldn't get along with it. Even tho it's a smaller scale, it feels longer than a JM. I didn't like the way it sat on me while standing or sitting. I sold it to member dain years ago and he still owns and loves it. I'm only 5' 10" and he's at least 6' so I think that's why.

I love the sound of them though.
I had the same feeling with mine and I'm also 5'10". When they debuted in the 60s the average height for a man was 5'7" (now 5'9") so it must have had some effect on its low sales at the time compared to more sensibly-sized instruments.

I wonder if there's a way to redesign them to be more proportionate and still look 'right'
Silly Rabbit, don't you know scooped mids are for kids?

User avatar
Chippertheripper
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:53 pm
Location: SE mass

Re: We've decided Firebirds are not offset, right?

Post by Chippertheripper » Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:50 am

Image

This thing is taller than my bass (short scale Japanese dept store fun junk), as they sit in the rack, but dagnabbit, I’m overjoyed with how good it is.
And now that it’s sporting a knockoff tr cover, it can be our inside joke.
The differences are subtle. Nibs, nitro, the bigger posts in the bridge, and literally the biggest: lack of a giant hard case.
At 5’8”, it’ll just as good of a job as my ugly mug of keeping people away from me, too.

User avatar
CorporateDisguise
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 777
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2015 9:56 am
Location: NY

Re: We've decided Firebirds are not offset, right?

Post by CorporateDisguise » Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:13 am

My firebird was my first really good guitar. I was pretty disappointed when I got it, because the pickups made it sound pretty blah. So I mostly played it unplugged, and really fell in love with the feel. I remember the day I got it, I brought it to band practice, and the screw holding the strap button pulled out and the guitar fell onto the floor, and sheared of the high e banjo tuner. At that point (around 2008) replacements were really hard to find. I grafted tome crappy acoustic tuner on and got on with life. Unfortunately, barely ever using the guitar due to all its flaws.

A few years later, I finally got around to fixing it up, and I put new Steineberger tuners on, got some DUrbano firebird pickups, and real 500 k pots. Mine is a 2001 model and came with 300k pots, which made everything sound stuffy. The last mod, was the Bigsby, which took a long time to get right concerning tuning stability. Finally got a Tonepros roller bridge on, and the guitar is super stable now. It’s in a constant fight for #1 with my Jazzmaster. One of my favorite guitars ever.

Image

Image

User avatar
øøøøøøø
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 5984
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:26 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: We've decided Firebirds are not offset, right?

Post by øøøøøøø » Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:17 pm

I’m left handed plays right handed.

For some things it’s probably a strength but for other things it’s probably a weakness.

There are several styles of rhythm guitar that I wish I could do better

User avatar
Larry Mal
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 19673
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:25 pm
Location: Saint Louis, MO

Re: We've decided Firebirds are not offset, right?

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:23 am

øøøøøøø wrote:
Sun Feb 05, 2023 10:17 pm


There are several styles of rhythm guitar that I wish I could do better
I'm right handed that plays right handed and I agree with the statement above, so it's not endemic to your situation at all.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

User avatar
øøøøøøø
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 5984
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:26 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: We've decided Firebirds are not offset, right?

Post by øøøøøøø » Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:33 am

well to be fair, I want to do *everything* better!

But I should clarify: I actually feel that I’ve run up against the physical limitations of my non-dominant hand despite diligent work. I believe it’s possible to progress beyond what’s initially possible, and I have, but it’s much more difficult than I presume it would be for someone using their dominant hand in the role.

Right hand technique for some rhythm styles has a much larger range of motion and uses coarser muscle groups, so it really does make a difference. I feel like the original delegation of dominant versus non-dominant hand may not be as misguided as is commonly thought.

User avatar
Embenny
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 10363
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 5:07 am

Re: We've decided Firebirds are not offset, right?

Post by Embenny » Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:04 am

øøøøøøø wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:33 am
well to be fair, I want to do *everything* better!

But I should clarify: I actually feel that I’ve run up against the physical limitations of my non-dominant hand despite diligent work. I believe it’s possible to progress beyond what’s initially possible, and I have, but it’s much more difficult than I presume it would be for someone using their dominant hand in the role.

Right hand technique for some rhythm styles has a much larger range of motion and uses coarser muscle groups, so it really does make a difference. I feel like the original delegation of dominant versus non-dominant hand may not be as misguided as is commonly thought.
I think it's easy to recognize what's challenging, and difficult to recognize what came naturally. As a right-handed player, I often feel that my fretting hand is clumsier and less dexterous than I'd like. Rapid, clean changes in complex and uncommon chord shapes, for example. I don't feel like my right hand has ever hit such limitations. When I was a beginner, I remember thinking it would have made more sense for my fretting hand to be the dominant one, but that's likely a case of "the grass is always greener." Most instruments are two-handed, so you'll hit this type of challenge one way or another. The weak hand will always be the weak link, it'll just express itself differently on a fretting hand vs a picking one.

Other than some niche modern special-order stuff, there's never been a left-handed piano, clarinet or bassoon. They're just innately two-handed instruments. The piano is an interesting case study; at first glance, one might think there's a right-handed bias given the tendency to play the melody in the higher registers, but the left hand typically handles more complex chord voices and rhythms. Anecdotally, there's been a historical over-representation of left-handers among elite players and composers.

Overall, I think there's a lot of evidence that the "handedness" of a two-handed instrument is a bit of a non-starter. I think that all two-handed instruments will always present a technical challenge for the non-dominant hand, and guitars are unique in the relative abundance of left-handed instruments available. Yes, I know left-handers' choice among guitar models is pitiful compared to righties', and that sucks. But my point is that, unless you have a patron or are independently wealthy, a woodwind player doesn't even have the option of ordering a backwards instrument the way that guitarists do, and by the time they might reach the level where that becomes possible, they'd already have become a master of the right-handed version, so this type of debate is relatively unique to the guitar community.
The artist formerly known as mbene085.

User avatar
Shadoweclipse13
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 12435
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 9:22 pm
Location: Stuck in the dimension of imagination

Re: We've decided Firebirds are not offset, right?

Post by Shadoweclipse13 » Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:51 pm

Any of you guys who've got Gibson or clone Firebirds, are any that you've played that sound good or really close to a real Firebird, made as a bolt-on neck as opposed to a neck-through or set-neck? I'm really digging the Firebird sound more and more, but I've got a feeling that the neck-through is REALLY a part of that sound.
Pickup Switching Mad Scientist
http://www.offsetguitars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=104282&p=1438384#p1438384

User avatar
Embenny
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 10363
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 5:07 am

Re: We've decided Firebirds are not offset, right?

Post by Embenny » Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:57 pm

Shadoweclipse13 wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 5:51 pm
Any of you guys who've got Gibson or clone Firebirds, are any that you've played that sound good or really close to a real Firebird, made as a bolt-on neck as opposed to a neck-through or set-neck? I'm really digging the Firebird sound more and more, but I've got a feeling that the neck-through is REALLY a part of that sound.
I've owned two real firebirds and 3-4 various guitars with firebird pickups.

You'll never hear a neck-through design compared to a set neck. I'd wager any amount of money that nobody would ever be able to tell the difference reliably on a guitar with an opaque finish that hid the construction method.

But there are quote a few advantages to a laminated neck-through design in terms of stability and durability. You don't get much (if any) movement with seasonal changes - the laminated neck is much less prone to shifting than a one-piece mahogany neck. Similarly, the risk of headstock breaks is much lower with a laminated neck, since the cross-grain stiffness and strength is massively improved over a single piece.

All of the bolt-on neck guitars I've had with Firebird pickups have sounded totally different because they had different scale lengths, bridges, and woods, so I can't comment on whether you could hear the difference. I find bolt-on guitars tend to have a little more accentuated attack (or you could say that the neck-through has more sustain), and my opinion is that such a thing is felt by the player much more than it is ever heard by anyone. Plus, if you travel way up the neck, the heel of a Firebird feels absolutely nothing like any bolt-on guitar.

So I wouldn't expect a bolt-on Firebird to feel like a neck-through when played, but I don't think anybody would ever pick out the neck joint based on a sound sample.
The artist formerly known as mbene085.

User avatar
Chippertheripper
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 856
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2012 1:53 pm
Location: SE mass

Re: We've decided Firebirds are not offset, right?

Post by Chippertheripper » Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:21 pm

The internet seems to agree the current epiphone is as close to vintage spec, including the pickups, as you can get.
I’m not well enough versed in vintage specs to know the difference. What I can say is it’s a phenomenal instrument. Sure, it’s big and goofy and fun, but it sounds rad. I’ll go on record and say it’s my favorite middle position sound to date.

User avatar
Embenny
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 10363
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 5:07 am

Re: We've decided Firebirds are not offset, right?

Post by Embenny » Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:09 pm

Chippertheripper wrote:
Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:21 pm
The internet seems to agree the current epiphone is as close to vintage spec, including the pickups, as you can get.
I’m not well enough versed in vintage specs to know the difference. What I can say is it’s a phenomenal instrument. Sure, it’s big and goofy and fun, but it sounds rad. I’ll go on record and say it’s my favorite middle position sound to date.
They're reasonably accurately built other than the headstock, but the pickups are about 25% overwound compared to vintage Firebirds and consequently don't sound anything like what I picture when I think of that model. They voiced them to appeal to people who like PAFs, I think.

People seem to get all excited because they have actual alnico bar polepieces, compared to Gibson's track record of borking the construction of FB pickups (decades of using ceramic polepieces on the big G models and mini PAFs under FB covers on Epiphones), but they don't sound right to me at all.
The artist formerly known as mbene085.

Post Reply