Upgrading AVRI JM bridge

[blimpsgo90]

Hello - I am curious if folks here have made the decision to "upgrade" their AVRI JM bridge to one of the Mastery or Staytrem models. I am thoroughly aware that this is a popular upgrade for stock Squier offset bridges, but I am interested in hearing from folks who can speak to moving on from their American Vintage Reissue JM bridges. My concern is that the benefits are quite minimal because of the high quality of the AVRI bridge, and thus the worthiness of the swap may be negligible, but I am not sure. Thank you for your time.

[andy_tchp]

Depends if you're having issues with the bridge currently. If you're not, it's probably not worth it.

I was a Mastery guy for a few years from about 2009 (the CIJ Jazzmaster I owned at the time had a pretty lousy bridge and I wasn't that well versed in guitar setups), and cycled through a few bridges and had a Mustang bridge on my AVRI Jaguar briefly.

After paring the number of overall guitars back a bit I ended up with 1 AVRI Jaguar and 1 parts Jazzmaster. Both have AVRI bridges. Neither have needed any attention in the last ~10 years since I dialled in the setup. Both sounded better for 'downgrading' to the AVRI bridge; I'd come to realise I just didn't love the 'Mastery sound' and what it did to the pick attack/transients by comparison. Personally I'd opt for a Stay-Trem if I was desperate to 'upgrade'.

I spent probably an hour to ensure each individual saddle's pair of height adjustment screws were as level as possible (this is where almost all of the 'buzz' comes from).

I sold the 2 Mastery bridges pretty cheaply to one of the DEAFCULT guys who was a regular on here at the time.

[Mondaysoutar]

Lots of chatter on this man, I had the stock AVRI for a while and it was fine, I’m in the uk and Staytrem’s were available so got one and all in prefer that. I’ve found it ever so slightly dampens the highs, but I use flats so they do that a bit too. As always man, give it a shot and see how you find it.

[Mondaysoutar]

I spent probably an hour to ensure each individual saddle's pair of height adjustment screws were as level as possible (this is where almost all of the 'buzz' comes from).

I actually had a bit of a similar issue with the D and G saddles on the AVRI come to think of it. As you say though, after being properly set up will work well. Staytrem was almost too convenient and I was curious haha.

[crazyzeke]

Like how things went with choice of pedals from the 80s-90s compared to how it was post-2010s where we're spoilt for choice, amazingly there's a lot of choice in offset bridges now.

• Stock bridge - and the many variations of.
• Mustang bridge - the old-school standard upgrade for JMs/Jags, lots of variations of this too.
• Adjustomatic or Tuneomatic - the Gibson style, usually 12".
• Mastery bridge - Expensive but durable.
• StayTrem bridge - From what people have said, a good balance between durability/stability and cost.
• Halon bridge - Lots of customisation, mixed reviews, hella expensive.
• Tuffset bridge - A relative newcomer and the passion project of someone on the forum here, good reviews, I'd love to try one

Of that list I've used several variations of the stock bridge (mostly on CIJs but the odd AVRI or vintage as well), a couple of variations of the Mustang bridge (I think one was Squier/Fender and one was third party) and the Mastery bridge, which I've kept for over a decade.

---

Here's my experiences.

• Stock bridge is trash, I don't get on with it, myriad problems regardless of who made it because it just wasn't designed for roundwounds. Strings skipping around on it, saddles sinking and the grub screws poking into the sides of your fingers, whole bridge sinking into the body. Just a complete nightmare to keep it usable.
• Mustang bridge is a step up, as long as it matches the radius of your neck. I had one where the saddles touched against each other which probably helped sustain a bit (definitely helped the strings stay put) and one where there were tiny gaps between them, presumably due to a metric/imperial mismatch between the parts. A lot more stable but can still sink until you change the bridge pivot screws. I think one of my solutions was to roll them in Blu-tack before changing them for a different kind of screw entirely.
• Tune-o-matic I've stolen off an Epi or Gibson to test on Jags before. It doesn't rock with vibrato use, which can be a problem, and obviously the bridge was flatter than the vintage necks (12" bridge on a 7.25" neck is manageable but not ideal), plus there basically isn't height adjustment when you drop something in, either of the bridge or the saddles. You have to then mess around with neck shimming to make it work, and I never liked the bridge enough to come up with a more permanent solution.
• Mastery bridge is a great piece of engineering. I have one of the original ones from when they started making them, and to be honest it solved nearly every bridge related problem I had along the way. Tuning stability is better, sustain is better, top end presence of the guitar is better, the saddles don't move around. Plenty of naysayers will tell you it won't intonate properly and it doesn't rock with vibrato use, both of which are total lies from people who have probably never used one because they don't want to pay for it, to be honest. Seen that happen. Intonates about as well as anything else and mine will sway back and forth with arm use, probably not quite as much as the stock bridge but it's enough for the system to work correctly. Only weakness it has, which is shares with the stock and Mustang bridges, is those stupid little pivot grub screws which hold the bridge posts up and can cause the bridge to sink. My solution, as it was with the Mustang bridge the Mastery replaced, is using the little VGA port screws (with springs) from an old GPU as the threads matched perfectly. The tradeoff is you lose height adjustment when the strings are on, but when you get it set right the bridge never sinks. It's such a good little mod and I've never come across anyone else doing it, which is why I always mention it when people talk about offset bridges because my Jag has gone from "constantly wrestling with the damn bridge every time I play it" to "I don't have to notice or care about the bridge" which is more than a little transformative.
  
  ---
  
  I will point out that my love of the Mastery probably partially comes from using Seymour Duncan pickups - by the time I got it, my Jag had had the SJAG-3 Quarter Pound super hot single coils set in there for a little while so I was used to the sound, and liked it. The SJAG-3b in the bridge later got replaced by a SHR-1b which is a Strat Hot Rails pickup as the initialism implies, and that sounds great in the Jag too for the things I like to use it for. These hotter pickups take off treble/presence and will compress the signal more than vintage single coils which reels in the attack/transients offsets with the classic style "D-plate" vibrato can have, so I'm guessing the Mastery putting some of that back in might be too much on other guitars. Perfect for mine though. Plus I'm a Buzz Stop using heathen (I've seen Noel Gallagher using them on his Jazzmasters, so I'm in either good or bad company depending on how you feel about him) and that does add tone and feel differences to the setup.

[crazyzeke]

Like how things went with choice of pedals from the 80s-90s compared to how it was post-2010s where we're spoilt for choice, amazingly there's a lot of choice in offset bridges now.

• Stock bridge - and the many variations of.
• Mustang bridge - the old-school standard upgrade for JMs/Jags, lots of variations of this too.
• Adjustomatic or Tuneomatic - the Gibson style, usually 12".
• Mastery bridge - Expensive but durable.
• StayTrem bridge - From what people have said, a good balance between durability/stability and cost.
• Halon bridge - Lots of customisation, mixed reviews, hella expensive.
• Tuffset bridge - A relative newcomer and the passion project of someone on the forum here, good reviews, I'd love to try one

Of that list I've used several variations of the stock bridge (mostly on CIJs but the odd AVRI or vintage as well), a couple of variations of the Mustang bridge (I think one was Squier/Fender and one was third party) and the Mastery bridge, which I've kept for over a decade.

---

Here's my experiences.

• Stock bridge is trash, I don't get on with it, myriad problems regardless of who made it because it just wasn't designed for roundwounds. Strings skipping around on it, saddles sinking and the grub screws poking into the sides of your fingers, whole bridge sinking into the body. Just a complete nightmare to keep it usable.
• Mustang bridge is a step up, as long as it matches the radius of your neck. I had one where the saddles touched against each other which probably helped sustain a bit (definitely helped the strings stay put) and one where there were tiny gaps between them, presumably due to a metric/imperial mismatch between the parts. A lot more stable but can still sink until you change the bridge pivot screws. I think one of my solutions was to roll them in Blu-tack before changing them for a different kind of screw entirely.
• Tune-o-matic I've stolen off an Epi or Gibson to test on Jags before. It doesn't rock with vibrato use, which can be a problem, and obviously the bridge was flatter than the vintage necks (12" bridge on a 7.25" neck is manageable but not ideal), plus there basically isn't height adjustment when you drop something in, either of the bridge or the saddles. You have to then mess around with neck shimming to make it work, and I never liked the bridge enough to come up with a more permanent solution.
• Mastery bridge is a great piece of engineering. I have one of the original ones from when they started making them, and to be honest it solved nearly every bridge related problem I had along the way. Tuning stability is better, sustain is better, top end presence of the guitar is better, the saddles don't move around. Plenty of naysayers will tell you it won't intonate properly and it doesn't rock with vibrato use. (EDIT: Technically they're not supposed to rock but as the CIJ posts I was sent didn't fit I used it as it came with the skinnier American-style thimbles, so my Mastery rocks with vibrato use and I don't have problems with strings snapping at the bridge and the tuning is overall pretty solid as floating vibrato guitars go. Trust me to do something in a non-standard way and end up liking the result, but as a few people on the thread mention later on, that's not technically the "correct" way so if you do try this, YMMV) Intonates about as well as anything else and mine will sway back and forth with arm use, probably not quite as much as the stock bridge but it's enough for the system to work correctly. Only weakness it has, which is shares with the stock and Mustang bridges, is those stupid little pivot grub screws which hold the bridge posts up and can cause the bridge to sink. My solution, as it was with the Mustang bridge the Mastery replaced, is using the little VGA port screws (with springs) from an old GPU as the threads matched perfectly. The tradeoff is you lose height adjustment when the strings are on, but when you get it set right the bridge never sinks. It's such a good little mod and I've never come across anyone else doing it, which is why I always mention it when people talk about offset bridges because my Jag has gone from "constantly wrestling with the damn bridge every time I play it" to "I don't have to notice or care about the bridge" which is more than a little transformative.

---

I will point out that my love of the Mastery probably partially comes from using Seymour Duncan pickups - by the time I got it, my Jag had had the SJAG-3 Quarter Pound super hot single coils set in there for a little while so I was used to the sound, and liked it. The SJAG-3b in the bridge later got replaced by a SHR-1b which is a Strat Hot Rails pickup as the initialism implies, and that sounds great in the Jag too for the things I like to use it for. These hotter pickups take off treble/presence and will compress the signal more than vintage single coils which reels in the attack/transients offsets with the classic style "D-plate" vibrato can have, so I'm guessing the Mastery putting some of that back in might be too much on other guitars. Perfect for mine though. Plus I'm a Buzz Stop using heathen (I've seen Noel Gallagher using them on his Jazzmasters, so I'm in either good or bad company depending on how you feel about him) and that does add tone and feel differences to the setup. Oh and I have 500K pots in the lead circuit, that makes for a darker overall tone for both pickups too.

It's pretty heavily modified, so I'd love to get a regularish Jag and try a Mastery bridge on it with stock vintage style pickups and no other hardware changes, see how that fares. I was looking into it until I crossed paths with a beautiful HRD Mk. II and bought that instead.

[Deed_Poll]

Tuffset creator here!

Having gone through the whole process of R&D, it seems to me the most important aspect of an Offset bridge is whether it's "fixed-post" or "rocking-post".

This is because the bridge is (mechanically) downstream of the vibrato.

These have different sounds (particularly under vibrato use) and behave differently. Most importantly, the choice between fixed and rocking determines the saddle design.

Because a fixed-post must only ever be combined with a low-friction saddle; and a rocking-post must only be combined with a high-friction saddle.

A fixed-post bridge with a high-friction saddle will pinch / ping the strings as you use the vibrato - think of a TOM / AOM bridge. The vibrato has all this potential power to move the strings over the bridge saddles, and if the saddles are fixed in position (fixed-post) and have high-friction string slots, persistent vibrato use is going to cause problems and you'll fairly regularly break strings or drop tune dramatically.

If you only ever use less than 10% of your vibrato range, an AOM might be able to act something like a rocking-post/ high-friction design just by rocking on the slop between the post and body insert threads. But this isn't by design, and there's no way to know you're approaching "the line" until you step over it, hear the *ping*, and have a tuning situation to sort out.

Conversely, a rocking bridge with low-friction saddles is also problematic. I've played a few traditional (rocking) offset bridges that have been retrofitted with low-friction saddles, and they have a different problem - the position of the saddle is now *under-defined*, and in an unstable equilibrium such that repeated use of the vibrato will inevitably walk the floating point (zero axis) of the bridge until the posts are left leaning against one or other side (usually the neck-side) of the thimbles. We call that "post collapse", and it can happen gradually *or* if you have a heavier picking-hand technique, sometimes it can happen catastrophically (all at once).

Other factors can make this worse - particularly when measures have been taken to increase the break angle *behind* the bridge (with a Buzz Stop or similar, or by positioning the vibrato route closer to the bridge).

So the two potential "solutions" are:

Fixed-post/low-friction saddle
Rocking-post/high-friction saddle

Now, I've always been a fan of the authentic / original vibrato sound. I believe there's something to the fact on a Rocking/HF bridge, when you use the vibrato the break point of the saddle is connected physically to the same point of the string. This means there's no cross-contamination between the speaking length of the string and the "dead length" of the string behind the bridge. But that's a subjective judgment - it's part of what gives these guitars their offset character *to me*, and that character is something I fell in love with from the first time I played one.

What isn't a subjective judgment is that a fixed-post bridge design must have a low friction saddle to function, and that an inherent result of this is that the string is designed to slide over that saddle and "turn the corner" (and return again) each and every time you use the vibrato. Even with a theoretically zero-friction saddle, this contortion causes localised friction internally in the string - and in any case, a zero-friction material does not exist.

By contrast, a Rocking/HF design doesn't need an *infinite friction* saddle to be perfectly optimised. It only needs *sufficient friction to prevent slippage* in the most extreme use case. So in theory, a Rocking/HF design *can* be optimised in a way the Fixed/LF design cannot.

The stretching and contortion of the string under vibrato use is not localised, but is shared virtually evenly along the full length of the string between the tailpiece and the nut.

Now, a rocking philosophy is not immune to all problems - in particular, the dimensional stability of the bridge components relative to one another. Almost all bridges use a "traditional" method of height and / or intonation adjustment that simply doesn't perform properly in the context of an Offset guitar with shallow break angle baked in. The biggest culprits are the intonation springs, non-captive intonation screws (the AOM scores a point there!) and height adjustment screws. There's really precious little to guarantee that when the string acts on the saddle, it will translate to linear rocking motion.

Let's think about the springs as an example. On a Strat or Telecaster, you can completely remove the springs and the thing will still function. Why? Because those height and intonation screws are actually being held in by string tension, and the string tension is capable of this because the bridge plate is fixed and the break angle is high. By my calculations, with a 40° break angle, the spring is providing less than 8% of the forward force engaging the threads between the int screw and the saddle.

However, if you change the break angle to 7°, everything falls apart. Now, that same engagement has about 1/6th as much force, and the majority is now coming from the spring.

This is (for my money) the root of all the real problems with Offset bridges. The downward pressure is a red herring - it's *forward pressure* on the intonation screw that is dangerously low and causes issues. And it causes much bigger issues to fixed-posts than to rocking-posts. Because on the fixed-posts, the spring is the first thing to give in, and you suffer from dancing saddle syndrome where the saddles all flap around on the spring independently of the bridge plate, and the two height adjustment set screw tips might as well have the saddle skating on ice.

What's more, in their focus on downward pressure at the exclusion of all else, designers of fixed-post bridges often double up on the strings-per saddle - inadvertently reducing the number of springs-per-string. It's a recipe for disaster and it's no wonder bridge problems still plague the Offset world even with maybe a dozen aftermarket options. They're all highly sensitive to setup.

Apologies for the long rant! But basically, that's why we set out to design the Tuffset in the way we did. The locking system wasn't some afterthought - it's fundamental to how you fix the problems of an Offset guitar bridge, whether you're in the Fixed/LF camp or the Rocking/HF camp.

Dan

[andy_tchp]

[*]Mastery bridge is a great piece of engineering. [...]

Plenty of naysayers will tell you it won't intonate properly and it doesn't rock with vibrato use, both of which are total lies from people who have probably never used one because they don't want to pay for it, to be honest.

Um, what? Also a 'total lie' stated by Woody, the guy that designed and manufacturers them?

Mastery Bridge - Offset Bridge

The patented non-rocking post design

I used Mastery Bridges for years, they didn't rock; as the design intended. If yours is moving with vibrato use you may find you have a pairing of US-spec ("M1") bridge posts being used in a guitar with Fender Japan thimbles which have a slightly larger ID* - this is why the "M2" version with the extra pair of larger bridge posts is available as an option:

M2 Mastery Bridge

* apparently up until 2012.

[andy_tchp]

And shit I forgot about the Tuffset bridge! I'd go with one of those if I really wanted an 'upgrade' or premium/very well thought out option or was starting a new guitar build from scratch.

[mekhem]

With the exception of the Marr Jaguars I have owned - I have upgraded every offset bridge and tried most of the popular options.

The stock design works really really well if you play with 11-12-13 guage flats. They put a lot of downforce on the bridge, gets rid of rattles, rocks as intended etc... The problem comes in when you dont want to play with 13-56 flats..... Everything starts to go wonky with lighter gauge strings and people then get twitchy about the bridge. Another important note about bridges on fender offsets - set up is important. "Most" bridge issues can actually be solved by adjusting the setup but that may affect personal preferences on play feel etc..


In the vein of CrazyZeke
-Stock See above. It can work but may requires some tweaks
-Mustang Including Staytrem/AmPro/Marr/b] Easy drop in replacement - Staytrem is basically my go to and generally works well and can be ordered rocking or non rocking. It does change the tone and the resonance/sustain/harmonics slightly
-AOM/TOM Garbage. Not made for vibratos. radius mismatch. I am not sure how this started except to guess that a gibson tech in Los Angeles had no idea what they were doing and jammed one one there and called it a day
-Mastery Well made - non rocking (no choice there) allows for a shallower neck angle. Can be real finicky to set up BUT once done it works really well (I have never experienced any issues intonating one which is a common interwebz complaint). Has a larger effect on tone and the resonance/sustain/harmonics
-Halon Well made. Highly customizable (saddles, plates, rock, no rock). Not a beginner drop in replacement
-Decendant Havent tried - but it looks like a solution to a problem that doesn't happen too often
-Tuffset Eagerly awaiting my delivery
-RSD J Bridge/Moose knuckle RSD is very nice, intonation is a hassle. Brightens the sound. Almost impossible to get aftermarket. I want to try a moose knuckle but just havent had the chance yet.

There are a lot of viable options in all price ranges depending on what problem you need to solve.

TLDR: Everyone has a different play style and desired play feel so some of these options just wont work for you. I have had at least 1 jazzmaster and jaguar that just did not like a Mastery aka - setting the guitar up the way the mastery wanted it did not work for me and setting the guitar up for me didnt really seem to work well with the Mastery. Same for Staytrem so YMMV...

[cestlamort]

I really like the Staytrem bridge and think it’s an improvement over stock in set up and sound and sustain.

I wasn’t so fond of the mastery on a JM but it was still more solid feeling over all (I still have one on a Rickenbacker).

If you’re happy with stock, I’d stick with that.

[ludobag1]

for me the stock av bridge is really stable ,reliable and usable bridge ,need to know how to set up it but after is forget ,i have jazz with them and they works really good for more than ten years , the guitar stay in tune better than other i can divebomb with them
the mustang will works ok but i prefer the stock av cause you can ajust the high of strings
the staytrem ,mastery and other for me are unknows cause i don't need

[idrankthebeach]

I have a 62 avri JM. I upgraded to the mastery bridge. I didn’t have a problem with the stock bridge, I have a pretty light touch, so the strings hopping the grooves wasn’t an issue. Just the occasional phantom buzz here and there. It’s just an okay bridge.
The thing I love about the mastery is the fact that the poles (or posts, whatever you call them) fit snugly in the holes (or cavities, whatever you call them). It makes the guitar so much more resonant, it was like night and day for me, especially when you dig into the guitar. A mastery bridge and those neck shims from Stewmac gave it so much more life (or soul, whatever you call it).

[timtam]

The stock design works really really well if you play with 11-12-13 guage flats. They put a lot of downforce on the bridge, gets rid of rattles, rocks as intended etc... The problem comes in when you dont want to play with 13-56 flats..... Everything starts to go wonky with lighter gauge strings and people then get twitchy about the bridge. Another important note about bridges on fender offsets - set up is important. "Most" bridge issues can actually be solved by adjusting the setup but that may affect personal preferences on play feel etc..

Sufficiently high string-saddle downforce is indeed the key to rocking bridge function. That string downforce on the saddles is the result of the combination of string tension (~ gauge/scale length/tuning) and string break angle over the bridge.

So you don't have to have higher gauge strings. But if you do, then you can get by with a shallower break angle (lower-angle neck shim=>lower bridge=>lower break angle). And vice-versa: if you have lower gauge strings, then you need a greater break angle (larger-angle neck shim=>higher bridge=>greater break angle).

The resulting string-saddle downforce needs to be high enough to create the string-saddle friction that causes the strings to rock the bridge with trem use ... consistently back and forth, so that the strings never lose grip on the rocking bridge. And the bridge returns to exactly where it started. Never use lubrication on the string-saddle contact points of a rocking bridge, as that destroys that necessary string-saddle friction.

The string-saddle downforce also helps to keep the strings in their grooves with heavy playing. Although that can be difficult with the original threaded-barrel vintage-style bridge, because those grooves are shallow. Mustang-style bridges have deeper grooves.

Fixed (non-rocking) bridges like the TOM/AOM and the Mastery require the opposite physics - low string-saddle friction.

[timtam]

...
[*]Mastery bridge is a great piece of engineering. I have one of the original ones from when they started making them, and to be honest it solved nearly every bridge related problem I had along the way. Tuning stability is better, sustain is better, top end presence of the guitar is better, the saddles don't move around. Plenty of naysayers will tell you it won't intonate properly and it doesn't rock with vibrato use, both of which are total lies from people who have probably never used one because they don't want to pay for it, to be honest. Seen that happen.
...

(my added bolding)

If a (fixed, non-rocking) Mastery bridge rocks to any extent with trem use, that is really a sign of failure of the low string-saddle friction design. The Mastery saddle surfaces are treated to ensure low friction (but that can wear over time) ...

"All of our Offset bridge saddles are made of solid brass and we plate them with a proprietary, self-lubricating hard chrome plating not found on any other guitar bridge. Heat causes metal to expand (in this case your strings when using the vibrato), which in turn will cause tuning issues when stainless steel and plain brass saddles are used with vibrato systems. Our hard chrome plating eliminates this and is the premier engineering choice to aid in lubricity.
Plain brass is a soft alloy and will wear grooves in guitar saddles, especially ones used with vibrato units in a matter of weeks. Plain brass grooves will eventually cause the strings to bind in the saddles, which in turn will lead to buzzing and tuning issues. Our proprietary hard chrome plating creates a surface eight times harder than plain brass and allows the strings to glide smoothly across the saddle surface while retaining the acoustic properties of our solid brass saddles."
https://masterybridge.com/bridges/offset-bridge/

String-saddle friction must be very low with a fixed/non-rocking bridge, so that the strings slide over the bridge with trem use. If that friction rises too high, the strings end up 'gripping' the saddles as they change length over the saddle with trem use; and so the strings can rock the bridge a little in its 'fixed' posts (depending on how tight/rigid their fit is). In that case you would want to consider reducing string tension (gauge) and/or break angle (bridge height) to reduce string-saddle downforce on the saddles. And also consider lubricating the string-saddle contact points to reduce string-saddle friction directly.