The official Kinman pickups thread

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Larry Mal
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Re: The official Kinman pickups thread

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Apr 07, 2023 6:00 am

Iffymiffy wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2023 5:54 am


I don’t know man, I love the thick sound of a P90 in a heavy Les Paul but I just keep coming back to the Jazzmaster due to comfort and playability. My heart is thinking “try a Les Paul Special SC”, but my brain is like “why waste time? Just go straight into a JM”
There's a lot of cool guitars out there that will house a P90, sometimes the Gibson SG Special is a totally lame cut-rate SG with bad finishes and uninspiring hum buckers, other times it's a cool guitar that's as good as anything.

I'd like one of those, but I think I'm caught up on electric guitars now. If I get a job I'll be applying for, I'll treat myself to an ES-175, but otherwise I can't think of anything I could really need. Getting Chris' pickups (I call him Chris now) in that Firebird is pretty much the last project I will be needing there.
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Re: The official Kinman pickups thread

Post by michel v » Fri Apr 07, 2023 6:55 am

Iffymiffy wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2023 5:43 am
It seems after Larry copped his there was just 1 left so I was like F it, and ordered the last P90 set.

I don’t have an appropriate guitar to put them in yet and am wondering if I can stuff them under a blank Jazzmaster cover and drill the holes for the poles 🤔
I don't know about the Kinmans, but a plain P90 fits under a JM cover with room to spare.

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Re: The official Kinman pickups thread

Post by Iffymiffy » Fri Apr 07, 2023 7:48 am

^Thanks for the advice guys!

BTW Larry, since we are on the topic of P90s, how would you say they differ to Firebirds? Am looking to either put these Kinmans in my Jazzmaster or some Firebirds as I want something Gibson like but without the hum/noise.

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Re: The official Kinman pickups thread

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Apr 07, 2023 8:46 am

Iffymiffy wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2023 7:48 am
^Thanks for the advice guys!

BTW Larry, since we are on the topic of P90s, how would you say they differ to Firebirds? Am looking to either put these Kinmans in my Jazzmaster or some Firebirds as I want something Gibson like but without the hum/noise.
Well, this is funny, because when you say you want something Gibson like I have to tell you that Firebird pickups were a clear attempt by Gibson to sound more like Fender. Which they do, I read somewhere years ago that Firebirds sound more like a Telecaster than other PAF type Gibsons, which is true.

Here you go- I feel like Rhett Shull will be able to sell that concept. Firebird pickups are fucking amazing.

To me, P90s sound very, very much like PAF Gibson pickups, just noisier, and they can saturate and provided kind of a natural distortion that PAFs don't always do. Of course, there are a lot of different kinds of pickups of both type, and some can be more chiming and clear than others, but to me a P90s is so close to a PAF type sound that I bet I couldn't easily tell the difference in a blind recording test.

That being said, P90s can be very touch sensitive, very warm and let's throw in a good pornographic thick and meaty, and can really get saturated very easily. I have also found that they respond to changes with the volume knob a lot more than other pickups, having learned on Fenders I tend to just dime everything on my guitars, but with P90s if you back the volume off a bit it's almost like you have a whole new pickup there.

That being said, I also don't want to sell myself as any kind of P90 expert. I've had several guitars with them, but not for years... I have somehow put Alnico rod pickups in my P90s guitars so they sound more or less like Jazzmasters. That's not a bad thing, but I'll be happy to get these Kinman pickups to get back to a real P90 sound.
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Re: The official Kinman pickups thread

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Apr 07, 2023 8:53 am

I have talked about these 580 pickups before, they were a suggestion of Mike's (I think he now goes by Benelux), and what a great suggestion that was. Just incredible pickups, I have them in my ES-330. I would have a hard time mustering up enough superlatives for them. Everything you would want a pickup to be, these are them.

This is what our new friend says about them:

"Expression through EXTREME Dynamics is the 3rd Dimension and this pickup has it in spades. The sound is Extreme Fender, like no Strat could ever sound like; it has that typical Fendery clang and has amazing prominent piano mid-tones in the low wound strings plus it has P90-like whack attack plus a huge warm lush and sensual bottom end and brilliant highs that have a nice sweet harmonic bloom. Mounted in an all Mahogany guitar the overall sound is a true cross of Fender (with beyond excellent note separation) -and- a P-90 (with it's airy extreme dynamic range, touch sensitivity and it's lush, sensual feel) "

And I have learned over the years that what might seem to be hyperbole with Mr. Kinman is, in fact, not.
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Re: The official Kinman pickups thread

Post by Iffymiffy » Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:15 am

Wow!! Thanks for the detailed response Larry!

I saw you mention Firebird pickups in other threads before but never really thought much about them! Will definitely need to try them one day.

Coincidentally someone is selling a Gibson Firebird with P90s locally for cheap, that might be a good candidate for the new Kinmans :)

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Re: The official Kinman pickups thread

Post by Surfysonic » Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:44 am

I took the plunge and bought the discounted Surfmaster set. Now the tricky part (OK, maybe not so tricky) - which Jazzmaster to install them in? :derp:

I'd install them in my Musikraft/MJT Jazzmaster build but it's currently equipped with JBE Two-Tone Pickups for Jazzmasters and they're awesome pickups. I'd likely have to order a whole new wiring/control rig from Gunstreet as the the current wiring/control rig is specific for the S-1 switching (humbucker, single-coil modes) for the JBE's. Frankly, it would be an unnecessary hassle when it's already got some high-end pickups installed. Also, this Jazzmaster is equipped with a Mastery bridge (and tremolo) but due to the Musikraft neck specs I have, I think it would be fine if I ever wanted to install the Surfmasters in it.

Image

Anyhoo, I'm leaving my Squier J Mascis "Ren & Stimpy" Jazzmaster as is with the Novak JM-HC Jazzmaster pickups. This Jazzmaster also has a Mastery bridge & tremolo. I really love the jangly Novak pickups, too, so they're staying put.

Image

That leaves me with two other options - My Squier Paranormal Cabronita Telecaster Thinline or my Squier 40th Anniversary Jazzzmaster Vintage Edition Jazzmaster.

The Squier Paranormal Cabronita Tele is equipped with a set of Fralin Hum-Cancelling Jazzmaster pickups that sound great, so I'll leave it be.

Image

This leaves me with the Squier 40th Anniversary Jazzmaster Vintage Edition, which is currently equipped with Brandonwound Hum-Cancelling Jazzmaster pickups and it's stock Squier bridge. The Brandonwound pickups are alright, but since everyone is raving about the Kinman pickups, I'm fine with swapping out the pickups. Definitely going to put the Kinman Surfmasters in this beastie.

I love this Jazzmaster with its maple neck and I'll likely want to grab and play it more often with the Kinman pickups in it. I know, the Surfmasters are the brightest of the Kinman JM pickups so I'm sure I'll have to use the tone control as needed.

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The other option would be for another Jazzmaster build, but I'm trying to behave re: adding more redundant guitars...TRYING... :whistle:
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Re: The official Kinman pickups thread

Post by Embenny » Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:47 am

In my experience, the magnetic core of a pickup and its inductance are the two primary factors that determine how it sounds, with the number of coils then coming in third.

Typical Fender pickups always have an alnico magnet acting as the polepiece, while typical Gibson pickups have steel polepieces charged by bar magnets underneath the bobbin. That's the main split between the two "families." This impacts the pick attack and dynamic response more than anything, with alnico polepieces having a very sharp attack and steel polepieces having a blunted but heavier-feeling attack.

The inductance then sets the resonant frequency and voice of the pickup. A lot of P90s have similar inductance to PAFs, for example, so they have a similar midrange emphasis and can be used pretty interchangeably with similar amp settings.

Lastly, the number of coils. Picking up the string at two different points leads to the loss of some upper harmonics, and introduces some compression into the dynamic response. E.g. a P90 with the same inductance as a PAF has a bit more sparkle and a bit wider of a dynamic range.

Firebird pickups, with their alnico polepieces, end up sounding like a Fender pickup of equivalent inductance, but with a bit less sparkle and a bit more compression. They are to Fender single coils what PAFs are to P90s. Because they're narrower than PAFs, there's even a bit less of that high-end cancelation, and because the bobbins are so narrow, they are traditionally wound on the lighter side, dropping their inductance closer to Fender pickups than, say, a WRHB with its larger, heavier-wound and higher-inductance coils.

A Firebird pickup wound light enough comes really close to a Fender single coil tone. So much so, in fact, that Mojotone's "quiet coil" are just Firebird pickups shrunk down even narrower to fit into a Fender footprint, and end up sounding close enough to be marketed as "noiseless single coils."

So that's roughly what you get with a vintage wound (~6.5k/42 AWG) Firebird pickup. A slightly louder, slightly fuller, slightly compressed Fender tone.

It's one of my favourite pickups. I love the vintage wind for its Fendery vibe, and moderately overwound versions strike a near-perfect balance between traditional Fender and Gibson tones, since their inductance lands closer to PAF/P90 territory, but the pick attack keeps that "Fender" feel.

But to loop back around to Kinmans, the reason I buy these pickups, even for a guitar that could fit a Firebird like my Jazzmaster, is because that extra sparkle and reduced compression that you get with a Fender single coil is something that I still appreciate, and there aren't many winders out there who have figured out how to maintain those qualities in a noiseless design. If I A/B my Kinmans against my Firebirds, the differences can really be felt. FBs are noiseless and Fendery, but they're still not "noiseless Fender pickups."

Having said that, I've got another pair of Firebirds under PAF covers on its way for one of my Flying Vs, because I just plain prefer Firebirds to any of the standard-format Gibson pickups. I also prefer them to WRHBs, whose wider-spaced polepieces and larger, heavier-wound bobbins push the inductance up into more of a thicker "Gibson" tone, despite keeping the dynamic response of magnetic polpieces. Firebirds simply sound closer to Fender pickups than WRHBs do.

Edit: a bunch more posts happened before I posted this...this was meant as an indirect reply to Iffymiffy.
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Re: The official Kinman pickups thread

Post by sal paradise » Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:11 am

Surfysonic wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:44 am

The other option would be for another Jazzmaster build, but I'm trying to behave re: adding more redundant guitars...TRYING... :whistle:
Read your whole reply & all I thought was this :D
I have nothing to offer anybody, except my own confusion?

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Re: The official Kinman pickups thread

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:27 am

Iffymiffy wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:15 am


Coincidentally someone is selling a Gibson Firebird with P90s locally for cheap, that might be a good candidate for the new Kinmans :)
You should pay more attention to Mike's response... he actually knows what he's talking about.

But, what is the Firebird?
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Re: The official Kinman pickups thread

Post by Surfysonic » Fri Apr 07, 2023 11:11 am

sal paradise wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2023 10:11 am
Surfysonic wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2023 9:44 am

The other option would be for another Jazzmaster build, but I'm trying to behave re: adding more redundant guitars...TRYING... :whistle:
Read your whole reply & all I thought was this :D
I know, right?!? Absolutely hopeless, I am. :wacko:
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Re: The official Kinman pickups thread

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Apr 07, 2023 1:16 pm

I've owned Brandonwound pickups and recently replaced them with Surfmasters. There's just no comparison.
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Re: The official Kinman pickups thread

Post by Iffymiffy » Fri Apr 07, 2023 2:02 pm

Thanks Larry! Great info from both you an Embenny! It is a Firebird Studio from 2018-2020 and at a price that is close to a new epiphone.

And thanks for the amazing breakdown Embenny! Now I really want some Firebirds in a Jazzmaster! How would you say they would compare to Kinman Surfmasters and Thickmasters? As those are what I own.

I was looking at Novaks Thunderbird pickups as an “alternative” to those and got sidetracked into researching Firebirds.

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Re: The official Kinman pickups thread

Post by Surfysonic » Fri Apr 07, 2023 3:09 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2023 1:16 pm
I've owned Brandonwound pickups and recently replaced them with Surfmasters. There's just no comparison.
Awesome to know - thanks, Larry, much appreciated! Arriving this Sunday, looking forward to installing them. :)
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Re: The official Kinman pickups thread

Post by Embenny » Fri Apr 07, 2023 3:45 pm

Iffymiffy wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2023 2:02 pm
Thanks Larry! Great info from both you an Embenny! It is a Firebird Studio from 2018-2020 and at a price that is close to a new epiphone.

And thanks for the amazing breakdown Embenny! Now I really want some Firebirds in a Jazzmaster! How would you say they would compare to Kinman Surfmasters and Thickmasters? As those are what I own.

I was looking at Novaks Thunderbird pickups as an “alternative” to those and got sidetracked into researching Firebirds.
Thunderbirds are basically overgrown Firebirds. Oversized bobbins, oversized magnets, many more turns of wire. They're more in the ballpark of WRHBs, that is to say, much higher inductance than Firebirds. More mids, less highs, more output.

A vintage Firebird will have a bit more mids, a bit less treble, and a bit more compression than a Surfmaster. Larry could comment on the Thickmaster, I don't have any of those handy, and I know they're supposed to be higher inductance.

Keep in mind that asking what a "Firebird" sounds like is like asking what a "strat pickup" sounds like. There's a sort of home base that it starts from, but then you can get into different magnet types, different gauges of wire, different numbers of turns of wire, and you get a lot of diversity from there. My 2016 Firebird came with ceramic magnet Firebird pickups overwound with tiny wire to something like 16k. They sounded like an aggressive, high-output PAF. I also had moderately-overwound Alnico V Firebirds using 43 AWG, which sounded halfway between a Fender single coil and a PAF. Then I have my 6.3k, 42 AWG A5 Creamery Firebird pickup, which sounds more or less like a loud and slightly compressed vintage Telecaster pickup.
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