DIY Celluloid Tortoise Knowledge Dump / Discussion

[postboredom]

Hello!

This post was intended to figure out how to make celluloid tort for diy'ers.

[LVC]

I can't help you, but if I remember my chemistry lessons from 20 years ago right, pure cellulose nitrate is violently explosive.
It is mixed with a plasticizer to make celluloid, bringing down its dangerousness to "extremely flammable".

I don't think I'd want to experiment with that stuff at home.

[my main man]

For a cheap option, I've been tempted to try resin pour pickguards in the past but I've never gotten around to it. I haven't messed with resin much so I'm not sure how hard it would get once it cures or how it shrinks over time, but I feel like you could do some interesting swirl patterns with it. Seems like you could make a mold of a pickguard and then do a main color layer, followed by thin layers of black and white (if you wanted a multi-ply pickguard. Has anyone tried this?

[Sweetfinger]

You don't want to mess with trying to mold your own block of acetate. The Spitfire guards are essentially, resin paintings. If you want to experiment, you'll be using some kind of resin, epoxy, polyester, polyurethane, casein, ...those are plenty of choices. It'll come down to familiarity with the materials. What good is it if you swirl a great looking layer in resin, only to have the resin pop cleanly off the backing when you flex or cut it?
You'll have to get the right kind of colorant, and select a resin with a working time long enough for you to paint or swirl before it sets, and you'll have to figure out a way to get the face flat- either sanding and buffing, or finding a way to mold it flat to the backing. I will almost guarantee you're going to learn how to flat sand, buff, and polish.

[hulakatt]

I can't help you, but if I remember my chemistry lessons from 20 years ago right, pure cellulose nitrate is violently explosive.
It is mixed with a plasticizer to make celluloid, bringing down its dangerousness to "extremely flammable".

I don't think I'd want to experiment with that stuff at home.

Makes moonshining sound downright safe and boring!

[postboredom]

thanks sweetfinger.!

[Unicorn Warrior]

Give me affordable tort or give me death!

[JSett]

I mean, we already have more sensibly priced good tort available under the name of LavaGuards.

It's a niché thing and good stuff costs more than the mass-produced tripe. £30 for garbage, £120 for great (LavaGuard), £300+ for wild (Spitfire).

Unfortunately, now that you can get an acceptably okay guitar for £300, that means that people's expectations of the price of good AND cheap have dropped with regards the amount of cash needed to hand over for the privilege of a nice product. If your guitar is worth £300 then £120 for a guard seems excessive. If your guitar is £3000 then, well, it seems pretty reasonable. Everything is relative, and context is everything, I guess.

[Unicorn Warrior]

Idk, it’s 2022. Should anyone ever have to spend $300 for a piece of plastic?

I understand that they’re unique at the moment. But guitar making, like everything else, went through the mass production phase. They ditched tort at some point, because who really cares, regulations, etc, right? Well, now, we enjoy things like that. Problem is, for anyone interested, that it’s still a piece of plastic. People who want it and can afford it scoff because “who pays that for a piece of plastic.” So, of course, if you really want it you’ll fork over your cash. But, I feel there’s such a bigger market (maybe most of it) at a lower price point. I can’t be convinced that the things are that hard to produce. If I’m wrong, I’d love to see spitfire or someone else share their process. That likely won’t happen.

Btw, I have a Lavaguard and it’s great. There’s also avant- guard who’s gaining ground. They’ve came a long way fast in the way their guards look. If those 2 can encroach spitfire’s market in a relatively short amount of time, how fast can anyone else do it with a little bit of know how and “want to”.

I’m going to bet that good tort will more affordable in the future.

[JSett]

Idk, it’s 2022. Should anyone ever have to spend $300 for a piece of plastic?

I understand that they’re unique at the moment. But guitar making, like everything else, went through the mass production phase. They ditched tort at some point, because who really cares, right? Well, now, we enjoy things like that. Problem is, for anyone interested, that it’s still a piece of plastic. People who want it and can afford it scoff because who pays that for a piece of plastic. So, of course, if you really want it you’ll fork over your cash. But I can’t be convinced that the things are that hard to produce. If I’m wrong, I’d love to see spitfire or someone else share their process. That won’t happen.

Btw, I have a Lavaguard and it’s great. There’s also avant- guard who’s gaining ground. They’ve came a long way fast in the way their guards look. So if those 2 can do it in a relatively short amount of time, how fast can anyone else do it with a little bit of know how and “want to”.

I’m going to bet that good tort will more affordable in the future.

It's not just a piece of plastic though, is it, when someone has to make it by hand, piece by piece. That's like saying a Masterbuilt CS is just a piece of wood.

Until it's automated to some extent you're still going to be paying for that one person's hours and materials. I have no idea how long it takes to handmake a piece of quality tort then cut/shape/trim/age it but, let's say, it's approx 10hrs work per piece... That makes the person selling a LavaGuard earning £12/HR, before materials costs. That's not a lot of money at all for an artisanal craft. Even if it's only 5hrs that's only £24/HR before costs... Still VERY low for that kind of work and expertise.

Freelance copywriters are £20-30/HR, Plumbers are £50-100/HR, Tattoo artists are £70-150/HR. Again, everything in context.

[PorkyPrimeCut]

...Unfortunately, now that you can get an acceptably okay guitar for £300, that means that people's expectations of the price of good AND cheap have dropped with regards the amount of cash needed to hand over for the privilege of a nice product. If your guitar is worth £300 then £120 for a guard seems excessive. If your guitar is £3000 then, well, it seems pretty reasonable. Everything is relative, and context is everything, I guess.

Totally.

I was a little surprised that Spitfire guards were now 300 quid each but, if it's all about maintaining a high standard & possibly employing a small workforce & making a decent profit, why not.
Here's where the smaller fish come into play & it's great to see Lava Guards & Avant Guards competing. Decent repro tort, and the lack of it, had been a talking point on this forum for years & even the cheapest of the 3 companies is already a huge step up from the guff that WD, Terrapin & Fender uses.

Incidentally, if you dig deep enough, at least 2 of the aforementioned makers had threads here discussing their methods, some with useful photos.

[Unicorn Warrior]

I’m just a guy on the internet. I know very little. But 10hrs per guard is very speculative. Especially when the process remains ambiguous to us sitting on the sideline and not attempting tort.

I’m not saying it isn’t hard to craft up a guard, but once that process is established and you’ve made a few dozen things are surely quicker and easier.

Also, I’d hardly bet that when Fender made these originally by hand that they anticipated them to be this coveted. They were just getting the job done and made some magical eye candy in the process. I mean entire vintage JMs and jags sold for pennies up through the 90s. No one cared. The reason we do now is because it’s a small idiosyncrasy of the guitars we love. We find now, that the guard was one of the major pieces of the puzzle.

I predict someone will come along with a more affordable quality product. Really, probably all it would take is a talented craftsmen from China or Indonesia to catch wind.

[JSett]

I’m just a guy on the internet. I know very little. But 10hrs per guard is very speculative. Especially when the process remains ambiguous to us sitting on the sideline and not attempting tort.

Until someone actually chimes in with experience as to the length of time, speculate is all we can do. But I have heard it is pretty time-consuming. Even if it's only 2 hours, £120 for a specialist handmade niche item is not much money.

I predict someone will come along with a more affordable quality product. Really, probably all it would take is a talented craftsmen from China or Indonesia to catch wind.

A lot of the cheap tort is literally a printout of a tort pattern sealed under clear plastic. It wouldn't take much to take a good picture of a good tort and use that instead.

[postboredom]

I Appreciate the love this thread is getting. The quest for good Tort is real.

[UC3]

Postboredom,

This thread needs a preamble...


Welcome to Tort Club
The first rule of Tort Club is: you do not talk about Tort Club.
The second rule of Tort Club is: you DO NOT talk about Tort Club!
Third rule of Tort Club: someone yells “Acrylic!”, goes “PVC”, taps “WD® Custom Pickguard Material Details”, the project is over.
Fourth rule: only four layers to a pickguard. - mint, black, mint, tort
Fifth rule: one tint at a time, fellas.
Sixth rule: No two-sided tapes, no ordinary glues.
Seventh rule: projects will go on as long as they have to.
And the Eighth and final rule: if this is your first time at Tort Club, you have to show your work.



My tort rabbit-hole ended here... the left end of my work bench covered in dust.

It is ebay celluloid tort(china) sanded with 100 grit sand paper on one side.
Colored cardstock(hobbylobby) sanded with 100 grit sand paper - both sides. Use any color but white, it turns grey when resin soaked.
I think I used Alumilite clear casting resin and rapidly applied resin to both sides of as many sheets as it took to get finished thickness.
Then pressed together between two rigid flat surfaces.
It is a mechanical bond, so it could fail under extreme bending - delaminate. The samples I produced held together well though.

I did try Nitro clear paint and pure acetone as solvent/adhesives, but they both proved too difficult to control. You never know when the majority of the solvent has evaporated and is thus considered "stable".

I was - for the most part - pleased with the results. There is some downside though. Dissimilar materials expand and contract at different rates during temperature changes. Resin, paper, and cellulose acetate/nitrate are three dissimilar materials. I noticed the finished sheets "bowed/warped" with temperature change. Nothing extreme and nothing pickguard screws could not overcome, but they did "move".

OTH, The blobs of color on the white cardstock are just a mix of three colored resins. Somewhere therein lies your answer. I think that is what Spitfire and Lava are doing, but could be wrong.

I've perused a few early 1900's books regarding the celluloid plastics industry and I don't see that process being replicated in a garage easily. Not saying it cannot be done, but trying to do what Mazzucchelli does would be very difficult. None of that equipment comes cheap.

Just my two cents.

Good luck though, excited to see your progress.

Regards,

Mark