Locking vs Non-locking tuners

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OregonMike
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Locking vs Non-locking tuners

Post by OregonMike » Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:39 pm

Hey, Folks-

I imagine this has been discussed ad nauseam somewhere in the archives, but can't seem to find a match for my question.

Wondering, for those of you who chose to go non-locking tuners for your JM, are you happy with that decision? Any issues? I'm in the process of a JM build and am familiar with the Gotoh locking vintage style. I added them to my tele, mainly out of curiosity. They're cool and all, but I find I don't save much time changing strings with them or keep them in tune any better than the standard Gotoh vintage, but I don't have much experience with JM's and have read a lot of "you definitely want locking tuners on trem guitars." Seems reasonable for someone who dive bombs a strat but doesn't really seem needed for a JM with a mastery trem system, especially if you have a good set up, which this JM will. Thoughts?

Thanks,
OregonMike

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adamrobertt
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Re: Locking vs Non-locking tuners

Post by adamrobertt » Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:49 pm

OregonMike wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:39 pm
Hey, Folks-

I imagine this has been discussed ad nauseam somewhere in the archives, but can't seem to find a match for my question.

Wondering, for those of you who chose to go non-locking tuners for your JM, are you happy with that decision? Any issues? I'm in the process of a JM build and am familiar with the Gotoh locking vintage style. I added them to my tele, mainly out of curiosity. They're cool and all, but I find I don't save much time changing strings with them or keep them in tune any better than the standard Gotoh vintage, but I don't have much experience with JM's and have read a lot of "you definitely want locking tuners on trem guitars." Seems reasonable for someone who dive bombs a strat but doesn't really seem needed for a JM with a mastery trem system, especially if you have a good set up, which this JM will. Thoughts?

Thanks,
OregonMike
Locking tuners are more about convenience to me than they are about staying better in tune. They make changing strings a breeze. I'm sure they'd be a big upgrade over some sub-par tuners, but most tuners that come on most guitars these days are perfectly fine IMO.

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Re: Locking vs Non-locking tuners

Post by andy_tchp » Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:51 pm

Yeah, I had the Gotoh locking tuners with the height adjustable posts.

Ended up hating them fairly quickly, put them on a Mexican Strat I was selling off, and swapped back to the usual slotted 'vintage' type (also Gotoh).

They didn't hold tune any better (if you bent strings to extremes they'd occasionally drop pitch in fact) and made it more difficult to change strings due to the locking wheel either not releasing or the endless wait for it to re-lock while you sit there turning the peg a dozen times to try and bring the string up to tension. The height adjust mechanism was also finicky and difficult to use.

By all accounts the Kluson 'Revolution' series are a good thing and are nicer to use if you're keen for locking tuners. The stock slotted type have always been fine for me with 1 - 1.5 wraps around the post for the wound strings and 2-3 for the plain G, B and E. YMMV.
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Re: Locking vs Non-locking tuners

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:52 pm

You'll likely get varying opinions on this, but I find that locking tuners don't really stablize your tuning. Sure, the clamp a string in place, but other than that, you are still dealing with the same mechanical composition of a regular tuner. I find that some locking tuners are faster to string than others and that is really where their bennefit comes into play, in my opinion.

I find that most tuning instabilities are really in the nut and how it is cut.

A lot of people complain about their offset bridges too and tend to lock them in place so that they don't rock instead of actually learning how to set up the bridge. It is meant to float and rock. Once you get the nut taken care of and find the perfect balance with your bridge, the guitar should stay in tune just fine. There are youtube vids that can show you how to deal with the bridge.

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Re: Locking vs Non-locking tuners

Post by Embenny » Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:53 pm

They're not meant to increase tuning stability, and they don't, if you string your guitar properly.

Tuning instability with vibrato use is either from binding at the nut, binding at the saddle, instability of the equilibrium point of the vibrato itself, or from putting a bunch of unnecessary wraps around the posts of the tuners.

I like some locking designs, if they do actually make for quick and easy string changes, but the vast majority of my guitars have non-locking tuners and I'd never change them unless they had some other issue (like a low ratio or backlash, which I can't stand).

When putting together a new build, I'll generally go for locking tuners since the difference in cost isn't huge and I do like them if they're well-designed (which not all locking mechanisms are).
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Re: Locking vs Non-locking tuners

Post by adamrobertt » Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:57 pm

mbene085 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:53 pm
They're not meant to increase tuning stability, and they don't, if you string your guitar properly.

Tuning instability with vibrato use is either from binding at the nut, binding at the saddle, instability of the equilibrium point of the vibrato itself, or from putting a bunch of unnecessary wraps around the posts of the tuners.

I like some locking designs, if they do actually make for quick and easy string changes, but the vast majority of my guitars have non-locking tuners and I'd never change them unless they had some other issue (like a low ratio or backlash, which I can't stand).

When putting together a new build, I'll generally go for locking tuners since the difference in cost isn't huge and I do like them if they're well-designed (which not all locking mechanisms are).
I'll swap to locking tuners if the originals are the type where the string is fed through the post, like Grovers or the Klusons that come on Gibsons, because I find stringing them annoying.

But if I buy a guitar with the vintage Fender style slotted tuners, I'll leave them on in most cases.

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Re: Locking vs Non-locking tuners

Post by OregonMike » Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:38 pm

andy_tchp wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:51 pm
Yeah, I had the Gotoh locking tuners with the height adjustable posts.

Ended up hating them fairly quickly, put them on a Mexican Strat I was selling off, and swapped back to the usual slotted 'vintage' type (also Gotoh).

They didn't hold tune any better (if you bent strings to extremes they'd occasionally drop pitch in fact) and made it more difficult to change strings due to the locking wheel either not releasing or the endless wait for it to re-lock while you sit there turning the peg a dozen times to try and bring the string up to tension. The height adjust mechanism was also finicky and difficult to use.

By all accounts the Kluson 'Revolution' series are a good thing and are nicer to use if you're keen for locking tuners. The stock slotted type have always been fine for me with 1 - 1.5 wraps around the post for the wound strings and 2-3 for the plain G, B and E. YMMV.
Yeah, that's what I've found out with the locking ones. They don't release the strings easily and you have to mess with the post to get them to catch new strings right away. I didn't notice that when I first installed strings in them.

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Re: Locking vs Non-locking tuners

Post by OregonMike » Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:40 pm

mbene085 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:53 pm
They're not meant to increase tuning stability, and they don't, if you string your guitar properly.

Tuning instability with vibrato use is either from binding at the nut, binding at the saddle, instability of the equilibrium point of the vibrato itself, or from putting a bunch of unnecessary wraps around the posts of the tuners.

I like some locking designs, if they do actually make for quick and easy string changes, but the vast majority of my guitars have non-locking tuners and I'd never change them unless they had some other issue (like a low ratio or backlash, which I can't stand).

When putting together a new build, I'll generally go for locking tuners since the difference in cost isn't huge and I do like them if they're well-designed (which not all locking mechanisms are).
Yeah, that's pretty much my view on it. That nut needs to be dialed or tuning will always be a mess.

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Re: Locking vs Non-locking tuners

Post by alexpigment » Tue Jul 27, 2021 3:44 pm

Seconded what Adam said above. Locking tuners are generally preferable to standard *modern* tuners, as you want something to lock the strings in place.

Fender vintage style tuners though are already locking (I’ll admit that the high E isn’t as locking though) and have several advantages over all other tuners. I don’t think tuning stability when using trem is a problem with proper winding techniques by the way. That is a bit of an academic argument rather than a practical one.

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Re: Locking vs Non-locking tuners

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:31 pm

I think that there is a very, very small benefit in tuning stability with locking tuners, a benefit so small that I doubt it could be detected in any way. But in theory, wrapping a string around a tuning post and then slackening that string with a vibrato will result in the string's wraps flexing a infinitesimally small amount and they won't return exactly to where they had been. There's really no way that can't be happening.

But even me, who never, ever uses non-locking tuners on anything other than my basses, will admit that it doesn't make the slightest difference in the real world.

I just use locking tuners because I hate the other kind. The Fender safety tuners are the second best. But I just think the whole process of stringing the other way is a huge hassle. I'm also of the opinion I have some kind of dyslexia about things like that, though.

It's really just personal preference. Locking tuners have benefits, they also have drawbacks, same as anything else.
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Re: Locking vs Non-locking tuners

Post by OregonMike » Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:08 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:31 pm
I think that there is a very, very small benefit in tuning stability with locking tuners, a benefit so small that I doubt it could be detected in any way. But in theory, wrapping a string around a tuning post and then slackening that string with a vibrato will result in the string's wraps flexing a infinitesimally small amount and they won't return exactly to where they had been. There's really no way that can't be happening.

But even me, who never, ever uses non-locking tuners on anything other than my basses, will admit that it doesn't make the slightest difference in the real world.

I just use locking tuners because I hate the other kind. The Fender safety tuners are the second best. But I just think the whole process of stringing the other way is a huge hassle. I'm also of the opinion I have some kind of dyslexia about things like that, though.

It's really just personal preference. Locking tuners have benefits, they also have drawbacks, same as anything else.
Good insight. Yeah, I never really used them before, even on my strat. Only recently bought them when I was building up a tele since I found some that looked normal (without the huge dial on the back), just seemed to make sense since I can get all Nels Cline on my guitars at times. Anyway, I haven't gotten used to the string changes like I have with regular Gotohs. Looks like the JM will get the standard Gotoh's.

Thanks for the awesome responses, everyone.

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Re: Locking vs Non-locking tuners

Post by alexpigment » Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:10 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:31 pm
I think that there is a very, very small benefit in tuning stability with locking tuners, a benefit so small that I doubt it could be detected in any way. But in theory, wrapping a string around a tuning post and then slackening that string with a vibrato will result in the string's wraps flexing a infinitesimally
I certainly get the theory, and I'll say it has merit on paper. Having said that, if you take a JM and push the tremolo arm all the way down, you can see that the strings don't move at all on the posts. At least that's the case on all of mine ;)

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Re: Locking vs Non-locking tuners

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:18 pm

alexpigment wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:10 pm


I certainly get the theory, and I'll say it has merit on paper. Having said that, if you take a JM and push the tremolo arm all the way down, you can see that the strings don't move at all on the posts. At least that's the case on all of mine ;)
I didn't say you would see it or anything. Like I said, in theory, it absolutely has to happen, but I can't imagine it really makes any difference. Finger pressure on the frets would make far more difference in tuning.
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Re: Locking vs Non-locking tuners

Post by alexpigment » Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:28 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:18 pm
I didn't say you would see it or anything. Like I said, in theory, it absolutely has to happen, but I can't imagine it really makes any difference. Finger pressure on the frets would make far more difference in tuning.
Right, and I think that's the key here. Bending or pressing down the strings has enough force to pull a string through the nut and into the fretboard area (and hence the string goes flat with a binding nut). Loosening the strings at the bridge rarely has enough force to move the string through the nut toward the tuners due to the break angle over the nut.

Anyway, I respect your decision to use locking tuners and I do see the benefits in some cases. I just find vintage tuners to have way more advantages (like being able to easily reuse the strings after doing any mods or adjustments). The process of stringing up is also like a 3-minute moment of zen for me I guess :)

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Re: Locking vs Non-locking tuners

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:43 pm

It takes me a lot longer than three minutes, and frankly I get really pissed off when I have to use non-locking tuners. I've learned to just put locking tuners on everything, you can imagine.

Except not on basses, though. For some reason I don't care about that.

I'm glad to see discussions of locking tuners going like this these days. They didn't use to, and on other sites it would be a real drag.

"Anybody know what locking tuners would fit my guitar?" you might ask.

"You don't need no fancy-ass locking tuners, you ol' whippergum," some old cretin would tell you. "I never done needed 'em nohow and so's I knows nobody else done never nohow needing nothing nohow anyway," he might go on.

"Go fuck yourself," you might reply.

That's pretty much how it went for me on the Acoustic Guitar Forum when I asked about locking tuners for my Taylor 12 string.
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