JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

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AcrylicSuperman
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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:45 pm

Maniac wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:16 am
Wow this is amazing! I was a member here years ago, but re-registered to say well done!

I'm lucky enough to own late CIJ Q serial number that I've had since new.

I'll continue following the thread as I'd be interested in the humbucker specs.

Seriously great job!!
Thank you, and welcome back!

That humbucker info could take a while yet. It has been about a year long investigation itself.

When Larry first told me about the pickup, he sent me a picture of Blue with the Duncan in it. So I automatically knew he was telling the truth, but since it was the first time anybody, as far as I know, had ever heard of them, I wanted confirmation.

I reached out to Seymour Duncan (the company) a few times and each time they were willing to help right until I mentioned Kurt Cobain and all of them were like "I can't touch on this any further." So it told me that it existed, but nobody was going to talk about it.

Larry told me that Seymour himself wound them. I tried reaching out to him, have heard no reply, but I think that is more due to not being tech savy. I reached out to MJ, and never heard a reply. I finally managed to reach out to Derek, Seymour's son, and I asked him if he he could confirm it with his dad for me. Derek mentioned that he remembered Larry and he used to spend the night with Larry's son. He had an interest in knowing about this pickup as well. I didn't hear from him since July until October. He sent me an update basically stating that he was still searching and apologized for it taking so long. Between covid and an influx of orders during everyones down time, they've been super busy. He told me that if I don't hear from him in a couple months, to hit him up.

As of right now, I have the specs of the pickup that went into Red 1.0 and it matches everything Larry could remember about it. If the custom shop comes up empty handed on Blue's, then I know where it is at and it may be out of reach. I know Larry gave Lee Bacon a copy of those specs. Lee is the guy who bought Kurt's childhood home and is trying to turn it into a museum. I believe that this was likely a customer copy. However, upon leaving Fender, Larry worked Artist Relations with Seymour Duncan. There is a small chance that Lee's copy is the original. I have not managed to find a way to contact Lee, so if anyone here knows how, definitely let me know. If Lee has the original copy, then I am going to take Larry at his word that both of these pickups were the same. I feel that after proving they existed and giving me specs that he remembered that ultimately checked out, it is safe to say that they probably are identical. But we didn't spend this much time researching to not look into it just in case. Lol.

Despite mentioning it above, I feel like I should add some context.

The pickup is essentially a normal 59 that you can pickup off the shelf today. There are a few differences but in terms of the coil windings, it is by all accounts a 59. So if you are trying to nail Kurt's Jagstang sound, a normal bridge 59 will get you there.

Most of the custom shop changes were minimal and primarily cosmetic but some of that kind of came with the times. For example, it recieved a short leg plate and in 1993, the 59 model only came with a long leg plate. So when you hear about some of these changes in the future, you may look at some of them and think it's ridiculous, so try to look at it through a 1993 lens. There is one very specific difference between the two and I can imagine that it would effect the way the pickup behaves, in a more Cobain like manner. I'm not an expert when it comes to pickups. I really should find a pickup maker, or a few of them, and ask them their take on that specific difference. I have a couple theories.

But we'll get into all of that soon enough. Lol. Sorry for being a tease. But you got something out of it. :)

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by HarlowTheFish » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:53 pm

AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:45 pm
There is one very specific difference between the two and I can imagine that it would effect the way the pickup behaves, in a more Cobain like manner.
Okay I'm gonna guess it's a ceramic magnet swapped in -- coil changes probably to compensate for some of the stuff that does to a regular 59. Kurt had messed with JBs, Hot Rails, and other higher-output stuff, and from seeing videos of him play and just listening to the records, something lower-output like a 59 would probably weird him out a bit as far as playing feel. I've seen some folks swap ceramic into a 59 on the Duncan forums, and I've done an A5 to ceramic swap myself, and you definitely get more output out of it with the caveat that it can do weird things to the upper treble on pickups that weren't really designed around it -- hence, I'd think, the winding changes, just to give it the same general tonality as a 59 but with more of a high-output feel (and, y'know, output). Either this or (or maybe in combination with) double-screw instead of screw-slug bobbins -- that IME does similar thing to rails as far as response in a pickup, but that's a shot in the dark more than anything. Dimarzio is famous for doing a lot of double-hex pickups, including the Super Distortion which Kurt used, and if we have a tech saying he swapped out a Dimarzio for a Duncan, he might have thought it was a Dimarzio because of the pole pieces.

. . . I'm probably polar levels of cold on this one, huh?

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:18 pm

HarlowTheFish wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:53 pm
. . . I'm probably polar levels of cold on this one, huh?
Image

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by jagstang » Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:00 am

Amon 7.L wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:18 am
  • 1st gen 1995 (U serial)= they are the closest to Red, but they never been made for left-handed (aside from the doppelganger) ----> NO other 1:1 Match;
if you search the jag-stang registry you find U serial lefties older than mine. What's their shape?

https://www.jag-stang.com/registry/view/12/2

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:46 am

jagstang wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:00 am
Amon 7.L wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:18 am
  • 1st gen 1995 (U serial)= they are the closest to Red, but they never been made for left-handed (aside from the doppelganger) ----> NO other 1:1 Match;
if you search the jag-stang registry you find U serial lefties older than mine. What's their shape?

https://www.jag-stang.com/registry/view/12/2
Great Catch, Detective Michael!
You've just earned the golden badge.

A lefty sample displaying the shape of the 1st gen;
Image

Now that it as become a Full-OSG investigation, what is your take on this?

Could these early lefties be a limited run from which Red 2.0 itself came out?

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by jagstanger » Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:59 am

Could be. Because as far as we know, no Daphne Blue ones came out that early as a lefty, right? Whats interesting here is, that the high E lines up good with the neck. But that's the issue with Red 2.0 - as we know it - 'cause it has the wrong neck.

It's interesting here, that the pickguard also doesn't line up with the bridge base plate. But that can also be, because it's an aftermarket pickguard. I don't think, they made it in white with dots.
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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by jagstang » Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:44 am

Also sonic blue appears as the old shape: https://www.jag-stang.com/registry/guitarinfo/1629/o2 or am i wrong?

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by jagstanger » Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:52 am

There's something I stumbled upon yesterday evening, that caught my attention. As fas as I know, we havent touched on this topic. Or i overread it. If so, call me to the office, officers :unsure:

So... I accidently came upon a thread in the Jag Stang Forum about a possible reissue. It's already from 2016, but I've never heard about it. Whats really interesting is, that the guy who posted it, with some pictures along, is apperently from fender, as one can suspect from hsi instagram account and has a lot to do with bands (J from Dinosaur Jr. appears a lot :) ).

This guy posted a picture of a Jag Stang in September 2016 with the following hints in the decription and comments:
"New from Fender, well not new but the third times a charm? Could be. 2016 Fender Jagstang. Fender Hollywood, Calif. Photo By O."
Question on the color: "Only colour availabl?"
Answer: "who knows?, it's a secret!"

The Pictures were taken at the Fender Office Grand Opening in Hollywood on September 22nd.

What's really interesting on the Jag Stang on the pictures is, that the Pickguard fits a lot better, then on any other versions. From the blue prototype over to the production models we know. It could only be the perspective on the photos, but this stood out to me the most. The horns have the same shape, as the later production models, but especialy in the lower horn area an the transition to the controll base plate the form flows a lot better. It also has black switches, as all other models have white ones.

I checked this guys instagram account on any further infos, but nothing appeared. But as we know from this thread, things can take a while with fender :D

Has anyone ever heard of this one?

Here's some pics and the forum and instagram link:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BKrOUg_D0oE ... =otisserie
https://www.jag-stang.com/forum/topic/7 ... jag-stang/

Here the thing!
Image

In comparision the 1995 and 2002 model, blue prototype and the different shapes. Looks like the pickguard shape in the lower horn is different.
Image
Image
Image

And also three pictures of the event, where the guitar was shown and is hanging between the other guitars in the office (The guys on the picture are Adam Roth, Brendan James and Bill Delia from the band Grizfolk):
Image
Image
Image
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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Jelestang » Thu Nov 26, 2020 6:28 am

jagstanger wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:52 am
There's something I stumbled upon yesterday evening, that caught my attention. As fas as I know, we havent touched on this topic. Or i overread it. If so, call me to the office, officers :unsure:

So... I accidently came upon a thread in the Jag Stang Forum about a possible reissue. It's already from 2016, but I've never heard about it. Whats really interesting is, that the guy who posted it, with some pictures along, is apperently from fender, as one can suspect from hsi instagram account and has a lot to do with bands (J from Dinosaur Jr. appears a lot :) ).
It'd take me a while to find back in this thread but it was rumoured there were currently white prototypes doing the rounds within Fender from an insider, only going off what's been written somewhere above ^^^

I have been clinging on to the same hope as well, and the insider mention is interesting although whether Covid has changed business plans, who knows, but when I wrote to Fender in October, the reply I got was:

"Hi , currently there are no plans for any new Jag-Stang models."

:'(

As many have suggested, given Kurt's ambition was an 'anti-signature' model, and affordable quality instrument, a Squier branded model would be great. Since then though, as mentioned in my earlier post, I have managed to abuse a credit card and get hold of a sub-four figure example I was offered in the UK (the rest seem to be far north of £1000, the only ones cheaper seem to require import from Japan) which is not ideal as it was never meant to be that expensive, which lessens the need somewhat but I'd still love to see others being able to get hold of this instrument at an affordable price. Back around 2006 I really wanted one, some retailers were selling them for £399 and second hand guitars were around £300, at the time and point in my life I couldn't afford either and so bought a then-new Jagmaster instead. If only I knew what I know now, I'd probably have saved a few more pennies up!

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by jagstanger » Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:11 am

Was there something about the white prototypes in this thread? If yes, I totally missed id. Whether they're planning on reissues or not. I just find it very interesting, that they still experiment with the Jag Stang. In this case with the pick guard.
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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Thu Nov 26, 2020 8:55 am

An anonymous Fender employee told me that there were plans for a Jagstang reissue. He didn't know a ton about it, but they did mention seeing a red prototype from South Korea. The individual is not directly involved and I'm unsure on the accuracy of this statement but there seems to be another prototype besides that light blueish white one.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:51 am

jagstang wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:44 am
Also sonic blue appears as the old shape: https://www.jag-stang.com/registry/guitarinfo/1629/o2 or am i wrong?
Yes, same 1st gen shape.
They were in the same registry page of your first link as the Red I've posted. I thought one sample was enough to set the point regardless of the colour :)

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by CROSS_guitars » Thu Nov 26, 2020 5:25 pm

Image

I'd actually be a bit disappointed if they reissued this particular take on the design.

For starters, it has a Jaguar headstock, not Mustang.

It has the bonkers mis-shaped mustang control plate I've been complaining about which seems to be popping up on all mustang models now.
It just makes the transition from the pickguard into the control plate look even more awkward.

The lower pickguard horn, yes it does line up but it looks kinda' fat and wrong to me. Like it's an Aliexpress guitar or something.
If they are going to "correct" that bit, they should at least make it like an actual Mustang lower horn.

Something like this:
Image

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:41 am

Precisely, Patrick!
It's so wrong in both shape & specs that at this point I could see it as a test bed to see people reaction and see if they could profit from another reissue, regardless of its accuracy.
I would have ended up at putting in the Paranormal/Alternative Reality series if it had more interesting twist.

Re: the control plate.
I thought about that different control plate since 2011 when I was searching for a lefty Mustang plate for the JAG-STANG done right and I ended up buying one from AllParts that was that different shape.
It was so wrong that it was throwing the entire flow of the lower bout off: it just looked better upside down to mirror the plate of the Jaguar.
Another happy incident due to being left-handed and not having the correct parts available:
Image

Oh, another detail:
Even though the AllPart's isn't vintage correct, it's thicker than the vintage correct in the MG69 RI-LH next to it (1.8 vs 1.5mm) and the chrome looks much better as well.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by K2Ri » Fri Nov 27, 2020 4:46 pm

AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:50 am
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Chapter - Part 10: “ The Jagstang: A History Part 2 - Blue”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The specs of Blue:
2 piece Alder body
White 1 ply pickguard, no bevel
Japanese Hardware
Blank neckplate
Daphne Blue nitro finish
3 screws on the hump
Right Handed Texas Special (neck)
Custom Seymour Duncan humbucker (Bridge)
250k pots
.047 capacitor
Maple neck
Veneer rosewood fretboard
Pearloid dots, both fret and sides
Vintage fret wire
7.25" radius
1 5/8" nut width
Gotoh tuners
Nitro finish
Thickness to be determined
Larry Brooks signature in neck pocket.

Mods made by Kurt:
Schaller strap locks
Gotoh ABR-1 Tuneomatic bridge
Locked tail piece
Cut off switch tips

Mods made by Peter:
Unknown 10mm tuners
Second string tree
*Neck pickup was the BRIDGE version of the Texas Special.
https://imgbb.com/hZfmWzs

BTW: What's your opinion on this one? I'm not saying what you are telling isn't true, but what's your theory on these photos from Earnie?
https://www.jag-stang.com/faq/general/i ... -h3-or-h8/

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