JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by BTL » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:32 am

In so many ways, Blue 1.0 is an intriguing piece of rock history. I can't express enough how cool I think it is that AcrylicSuperman and Amon 7.L have done all of the research to answer the questions that many folks have had over the years.
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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:28 am

OSGTemp wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:48 am
AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:58 am
I think it is cooler to know that somewhere in Japan, there are 4 lefty mustangs that were sold to the public that were made for Kurt Cobain. They're out there, somewhere. Only way you'll know for sure they are his is if the necks have Scotts name on the heel of the neck.
Yeah, they will definitely still be out there, although if they were "known" we definitely would have seen the Fiesta Red ones by now, they would have been such an odd ball item that we would have seen pictures of them by now even if regular people owned them, particularly if they shipped with red tortoise guards. The blue ones would be more difficult, they would look like any late 90's MIJ lefty in Sonic Blue. It's also likely pre-internet that they would have sat in the Tokyo store for a long time too, and it likely that MIJ lefty mustangs would have been widely available at least by 1995.

Although Kurt's Sonic Blue Mustangs are so iconic, particularly at the Live and Loud show, I was so excited to go to the EMP in Seattle to see it, but actually when I saw it in person, its really just a MIJ Mustang ;D . I remember staring at it for a bit at laughing thinking, "its just a mustang". It was the same vibe with the Competition Mustang in the next room - got to see it up close and again same thing... just a Mustang like any other!
I had the same experience at that museum. They didn't have the Skystang in it yet, but they had his competition and some of his strats. I was still excited to see them, but at the same time, once that effect wore off, I felt the same way. It was still a really fun trip though. If I ever make it back that way after covid dies down, I'd love to go back and see how much it has changed.

Also, Kurt's red was a custom color mix for his mustangs. I know that Fender was sent a copy of a color swath for it. That color swath ended up in the hands of the man that purchased the red jagstang at auction.
Last edited by AcrylicSuperman on Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:35 am

BeeTL wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:32 am
In so many ways, Blue 1.0 is an intriguing piece of rock history. I can't express enough how cool I think it is that AcrylicSuperman and Amon 7.L have done all of the research to answer the questions that many folks have had over the years.
Thanks.

It's kind of weird because when the internet was young, we kind of had to take what answers we could get. And I think to a certain extent, fans retold those stories and they got a little corrupted each time. But in todays age, everyone is connected and there are ways to reach out to people. It makes it easy to find answers. The biggest problem is, the people who can give the answers, they're getting old now and slowing down. There can always come a point where those answers could be lost.

With the Jagstang, we lost some important people right out the gate. We lost Kurt, Mark Wittenberg (head of artist relations), Dan Smith. Those are people who were involved that we'll never get answers from. Can you imagine loosing Larry Brooks or Earnie Bailey or Big John Duncan? At the end of the day, it is just gear and it doesn't matter, but I looked at the Jagstang as a living piece of history. Even if Kurt hadn't designed it, I'd still be looking into it. It's a unique piece of Fender history and it is a shame that it wasn't documented properly.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:58 pm

BeeTL wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:32 am
In so many ways, Blue 1.0 is an intriguing piece of rock history. I can't express enough how cool I think it is that AcrylicSuperman and Amon 7.L have done all of the research to answer the questions that many folks have had over the years.
Thank you Brad.
OSGTemp wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:20 am
  • I'm not clear around the production Jag-Stang variances - can this be explained more? I have owned multiple 1996 & 1997 Jag-Stangs and they were all the same later design, I did own one very early 1995 Jag-Stang with the small cutaway and different horn. At the time I knew it looked different, but didn't really understand why, I thought it was a defect body so I gave it away. What was the science on the body change?
I don't know what you mean with "what was the science on the body change". Can you please elaborate?
If you're talking about the geometries, aside from what's already described in the previous pages, your 1995 Jag-Stang wasn't defective shape-wise, it was just different from the ones that came later on with the revised body template.

As stated before: we don't know the reason(s) behind this change of shapes within 1st and 2nd generation. We can only speculate on the whys.

Among the reports by owners of the 1st generation, the ones that would suggest me a practical reason for the reshape were that is some cases, a certain number of Jagstang came out of the factory with bad neck alignment and bad (undersized) neck pocket, sideways-wobbling neck.
So, just my opinion, a practical justification for the 2nd generation to get a reshaping in the inner side of the horns where they meet with the neck pocket is to improve the surface of contact with the neck itself in order to reduce the chance of sideways wobbling.

Other than that, there are other issues/discrepancies I've found between the spec sheets Fender sent me last year when I was trying to sort out the aqua/sonic blue dilemma and other "common knowledge" regarding the production models.
Still, nothing that helps with the big "WHY", it just adds more questions.

If you guys are interest, tomorrow I'll go back to my notes and post those specs along with the other discrepancies.
Don't expect them to be jaw-dropping things though.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:44 pm

Just to briefly touch on the production models, here is a picture of several production models in a line. If you look closely, you can visually see differences between them.

Note the control plate on the first one. The pickguard on the second actually goes beyond the round over radius. Example three has a slightly different mustang horn, visible near the neck joint. Example four has a big ol' belly. The fifth example is red. ;)

Image

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by OSGTemp » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:16 pm

Yes, mine was like the second one, it was the neck pocket problem, basically the "lip" on the treble side was non-existent to hold the neck in. I thought for sure it was a defect of mine, but turns out that was actually the CNC shape at the time, crazy.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:03 pm

Considering we’ve already introduced the production model and its quirks & perks in the discussion, I reckon it won’t hurt to include this extra bit of information I managed to acquire last year when we were dealing with those known topics.

Specifically, on July 2020 I've sent Fender an email in which I've asked if they had any downloadable Jag-stang service diagram pdf available.
I’ve gotten a reply from a very nice & friendly Fender employee at The Consumer Relations who stated he has no access to any diagram other than the ones already published on the Fender support page, so the only thing he could add to the information I’d need is the list of the specs.
Which are as it follows:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Model Name: Jag-Stang®
Model Number: 025-4200-(Color#)
Series: Special/Deluxe Series
Body: Basswood
Neck: Maple, Modern “C” Shape,
(Polyurethane Finish)
Fingerboard: Rosewood (7.25” Radius/184 mm)
Frets: 22 Vintage Style Frets
Scale Length: 24” (609.6 mm)
Nut: 1.5625” (39.68 mm)
Hardware: Chrome
Machine Heads: Fender/Ping Vintage Style Tuning Machines
Bridge: Floating Bridge with “Dynamic” Vibrato Tail-piece
Pickguard: 3-Ply White Pearloid
Pickups: 1 Vintage Style Single-Coil (Neck), 1 Humbucking Pickup (Bridge)
Pickup Switching: 2 3-Position Pickup On/Off-In/Out Phase Slide Switches
Controls: Master Volume, Master Tone
Colors: (340) Fiesta Red,
(372) Sonic Blue,
(Polyurethane Finish)
Strings: Super 250R, NPS, #073-0250-006, (.010, .013, .017, .026, .036, .046)
Case: Deluxe Gig Bag
Other Features: Morphed Jaguar/Mustang Body
Source: Japan
Accessories: Deluxe Gig Bag
U.S. MSRP: $756.99
INTRODUCED: 7/2003
DISCONTINUED: 1/2005
DISCONTINUED COLORS:
WRENCH SIZES:
COMMENTS: Uses Case P/N 0996121424 US MSRP $169.99 (Silver Tolex with Black Interior) (Not Included)
NOTICE: Product Prices, Features, Specifications and Availability Are Subject To Change Without Notice


Model Name: Jag-Stang®
Model Number: 025-4200-(Color#)
Series: Special/Deluxe Series
Body: Basswood
Neck: Maple
Fingerboard: Rosewood (7.25” Radius/184 mm)
Frets: 22
Scale Length: 24” (609.6 mm)
Nut: 1.5625” (39.68 mm)
Hardware: Chrome
Machine Heads: Vintage style
Bridge: Floating Bridge with “Dynamic” Vibrato Tail-piece
Pickguard: White Pearloid
Pickups: 1 Vintage Style Single-Coil (Neck), 1 Humbucking Pickup (Bridge)
Pickup Switching: 2 P/U On/Off In/Out Phase
Controls: Master Vol., Master Tone
Colors: (540) Fiesta Red,
(572) Sonic Blue
Strings: Super 250R, NPS, #073-0250-006, (.010, .013, .017, .026, .036, .046)
Case: None
Other Features:
Source: Japan
Accessories: None
U.S. MSRP: $619.99 (w/o case),..$774.99 (w/ case) Uses Black Tolex Hardshell Case # 004-0153-000 U.S. MSRP $149.95
INTRODUCED: 1995
DISCONTINUED: 1/1999
DISCONTINUED COLORS:
WRENCH SIZES:
COMMENTS: Uses Case pn# 0996121424 US MSRP $169.99 (Silver Tolex with Black Interior)
NOTICE: Product Prices, Features, Specifications and Availability Are Subject To Change Without Notice
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Due to the fact that the goal was to sort out the aqua/sonic blue colour variance, in regards to those spec sheets I’ve furtherly asked:

“I’d like to ask you one last question if you don’t mind. It’s just out of curiosity.
I noticed that on the specs of the JAG-STANG, the color reference for the fiesta red and sonic blue are different. Are they different shades?
I tried to look’em up in your color chart but it only goes up to number 99.

1995 JAG-STANG has these:
(540) Fiesta Red,
(572) Sonic Blue

2003 JAG-STANG has these:
(340) Fiesta Red,
(372) Sonic Blue.

Can I kindly ask you some insight on those numbers? Does it indicates different batches of paint to separate the first run from the Reissue?
Is there a hex code you can direct me to tell them apart?”


To which I’ve got this response:

“The last 3 digits of our product (material) number do reference the color but aren't related to a pantone or a hex code that I'm aware of.
I'm pretty sure that the reason why they're different is because each specs sheet is referred to a different period (stated at the beginning of the specs. list) so it's most probable the part numbers were updated.
As long as the color has the same name, it shouldn't be different for us.”



This tells us that in the practical world, regardless of the fact that there are very different shades of blue spanning from USA Sonic blue, Japanese Sonic blue all the way to the more distinctively greenish aqua-ish blue, Fender universally refers to the blue shades as “Sonic Blue”.

Hence, we don’t have a constant specific hue nor colour code to clock the real shade of blue the Jag-stang was intended to be in the mass production.
Let's not forget that the blue prototype is Daphne.
Knowing that there is record of a colour swat for red, we could rightfully assume the existence of a colour swat for the blue as well.


By further analysis of the official Fender spec sheets, I noticed other elements that tell a different story than what it’s the common knowledge.
For instance: just as an example, if you go on Wikipedia’s Jag-stang page to check for specs, you’d get so much inaccuracies that it should be deleted and re-compiled entirely with the updated data.
I’m leaving you this screenshot so you can start comparing things out, we'll pick-up from there:
Image

In the next entry I’m gonna talk about body woods, pickups and other details, stay tuned.



P.S.:
For the detectives who had fun during the previous wrap-up, this is your chance to spot the anomalies (I have already left some huge hints).

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by BTL » Wed Apr 21, 2021 1:43 pm

Image
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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Thu Apr 22, 2021 5:29 am

I've got hold of my old notes and I'm in need of doing some further check-ups other than compile a more thread-friendly set of pics so, in the meantime, I'll just drop a visual reference of the type of neck pocket issues I was talking about:

Image

Judging by the serial number in the neck being v022885, the registry dates it as "approx. 1996".
Due to the angle I can't tell if the body is shaped as the 1st or 2nd generation regardless of the serial number but, nonetheless, the issue is quite prominent.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by CROSS_guitars » Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:08 am

The neck pockets on my 2 Jag-stangs are all over the place too. Maybe not as bad as that one.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by BTL » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:43 am

It looks like the Wikipedia page and the specs Fender provided don't line up as far as years of production are concerned.

On that neck pocket, it looks like the body's heel is the same width as the neck plate, which is a good bit narrower than a standard neck heel.

On a side note, I went looking for a Jag-Stang bass and found this April fool's joke from 2008. I like it!

https://www.jag-stang.com/2008/04/fende ... ss-guitar/

Image
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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by HNB » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:11 am

Would buy it.
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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:43 am

BeeTL wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:43 am
It looks like the Wikipedia page and the specs Fender provided don't line up as far as years of production are concerned.

On that neck pocket, it looks like the body's heel is the same width as the neck plate, which is a good bit narrower than a standard neck heel.

On a side note, I went looking for a Jag-Stang bass and found this April fool's joke from 2008. I like it!

https://www.jag-stang.com/2008/04/fende ... ss-guitar/

Image
I'm actually slowly (very slowly unfortunately) in the process of building one. Not sure if I am going 34" scale or 32" yet.

Mine will be a little different than that though. I plan to build 2 of them. One for myself and one for my little cousin who picked up the bass and fell in love with it. I figured if she sticks with it, I'll build her one so she can have a quality instrument in her arsenal.

I'm planning to make mine purely a P bass, but I'll end up making hers a PJ. Probably wont use the mustang bass bridge but just a standard one.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by BTL » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:19 am

AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 8:43 am
I'm actually slowly (very slowly unfortunately) in the process of building one. Not sure if I am going 34" scale or 32" yet.

Mine will be a little different than that though. I plan to build 2 of them. One for myself and one for my little cousin who picked up the bass and fell in love with it. I figured if she sticks with it, I'll build her one so she can have a quality instrument in her arsenal.

I'm planning to make mine purely a P bass, but I'll end up making hers a PJ. Probably wont use the mustang bass bridge but just a standard one.
I was thinking it might be fun to modify a Vintera Mustang Bass by replacing the body with the Jag-Stang shape, but it's all purely conjecture at this point.
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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by Amon 7.L » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:53 am

BeeTL wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:43 am
It looks like the Wikipedia page and the specs Fender provided don't line up as far as years of production are concerned.

On that neck pocket, it looks like the body's heel is the same width as the neck plate, which is a good bit narrower than a standard neck heel.
Exactly, but the discrepancies are not only bound to years of production, there's more...
I'll post a picture shortly for comparison.


BeeTL wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:43 am

On a side note, I went looking for a Jag-Stang bass and found this April fool's joke from 2008. I like it!

https://www.jag-stang.com/2008/04/fende ... ss-guitar/

Image
Well, someone actually built it with great success, look it up:
https://www.jag-stang.com/2014/08/the-jag-stang-bass/
Image


Full build from our very own punkacc9:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=67052

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