JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

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OSGTemp
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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by OSGTemp » Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:20 am

This is a wild thread. To summarize is the following now thought to be true?
  • That Kurt's original Daphne Blue Jag-Stang now in possession of REM, that the neck was made by Scott Zimmerman in Japan, unfinished (no poly), shipped to US and finished Nitro by US custom shop?
  • That whilst the Daphne Blue Jag-Stang was probably shipped to Kurt by October 1993, it was actually manufactured after August 1993?
  • That Earnie talks about the Jag-Stang at unplugged, so it is possible that it was used live during late November, although the first documented evidence is December 1 & December 3 shows.
  • That the Dakota Red Jag-Stang was in fact a duplicate exact shape of the original Daphne Blue, and that this Dakota Red Jag-Stang was present at Fender during April 1994 and was stolen or "lost" sometime after April 1994.
  • That the original Dakota Red Jag-Stang again had a neck manufactured from Japan and finished nitro in the US.
  • That during late 1994 The Estate gave approval to mass produce the Jag-Stang, but Fender keeps quiet on the "lost" Dakota Red Jag-Stang and cranks out a prototype that all our Jag-Stangs have been based on, and is the famously photographed one we are familiar with. It is not clear if this "second" red Jag-Stang was made in late 1994 or early 1995, but is pieced together with a MG69 neck.
  • It is not clear to me why this second red Jag-Stang guitar went for 90,000 dollars if Fender really knew its providence.
  • I'm not clear around the production Jag-Stang variances - can this be explained more? I have owned multiple 1996 & 1997 Jag-Stangs and they were all the same later design, I did own one very early 1995 Jag-Stang with the small cutaway and different horn. At the time I knew it looked different, but didn't really understand why, I thought it was a defect body so I gave it away. What was the science on the body change?

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:25 am

OSGTemp wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:20 am
This is a wild thread. To summarize is the following now thought to be true?
  • That Kurt's original Daphne Blue Jag-Stang now in possession of REM, that the neck was made by Scott Zimmerman in Japan, unfinished (no poly), shipped to US and finished Nitro by US custom shop?
  • That whilst the Daphne Blue Jag-Stang was probably shipped to Kurt by October 1993, it was actually manufactured after August 1993?
  • That Earnie talks about the Jag-Stang at unplugged, so it is possible that it was used live during late November, although the first documented evidence is December 1 & December 3 shows.
  • That the Dakota Red Jag-Stang was in fact a duplicate exact shape of the original Daphne Blue, and that this Dakota Red Jag-Stang was present at Fender during April 1994 and was stolen or "lost" sometime after April 1994.
  • That the original Dakota Red Jag-Stang again had a neck manufactured from Japan and finished nitro in the US.
  • That during late 1994 The Estate gave approval to mass produce the Jag-Stang, but Fender keeps quiet on the "lost" Dakota Red Jag-Stang and cranks out a prototype that all our Jag-Stangs have been based on, and is the famously photographed one we are familiar with. It is not clear if this "second" red Jag-Stang was made in late 1994 or early 1995, but is pieced together with a MG69 neck.
  • It is not clear to me why this second red Jag-Stang guitar went for 90,000 dollars if Fender really knew its providence.
  • I'm not clear around the production Jag-Stang variances - can this be explained more? I have owned multiple 1996 & 1997 Jag-Stangs and they were all the same later design, I did own one very early 1995 Jag-Stang with the small cutaway and different horn. At the time I knew it looked different, but didn't really understand why, I thought it was a defect body so I gave it away. What was the science on the body change?
Kurt's Daphne Blue Jagstang is owned by Peter Buck of REM, the neck was made by Larry Brooks and was nitro finished in the custom shop.

Not sure the actual date of manufacture. I believe it was finished in October of 1993 and shipped with his second mustang shipment (being october 22 or 23).

As far as I know, despite Earnie's claims, I don't believe he was actually at that show. The two techs listed were Jim Vincent and John Duncan. Can confirm John was present and have actually reached out to him about this claim. The jagstang never had the DiMarzio H8 that Earnie claims he took out of it and replaved with a JB. It appears that he did take an H8 out of one of Kurt's strats that was given to Pat Smear. First public appearance, where it has been slightly modified, was December 1st.

Yes. The Dakota prototype was an exact match to Blue. The bodies were both cut by a cnc machine with the same template, so there should be no reason the two shapes are different. The guitar would have gone missing in late 1994 or early 1995.

Dakota originally had a neck made by Larry Brooks. I was told that Dan Smith asked Scott Zimmerman to ship 2 MG 69 necks raw. These were shot in nitro at Fender and one of these necks ended up on the Dakota prototype as a way to remove Larry's name from it. I believe the second neck was used for the dakota replacement.

I believe the replacement prototype was made in 1995 using rejected templates made by Mark Kendrick.

Despite selling at auction, the red prototype replacement was purchased by a Fender employee who was given details in private.

I can't list all the differences in production models, that's Amon's department, but there were several variances between Fujigen and Tokai as well as the second wave of reissues.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by OSGTemp » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:38 pm

Thanks for the info! So the assumption is that Ryan Jarman has seen the Jag-Stang in person and photographed it, but is not permitted to share the photos online?

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:16 pm

OSGTemp wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:38 pm
Thanks for the info! So the assumption is that Ryan Jarman has seen the Jag-Stang in person and photographed it, but is not permitted to share the photos online?
The Jarman's have seen the Jagstang at Peter Buck's residence. I believe Gary has the photo. While they didn't share the photo with us, they did share details that we were missing, such as the headstock saying custom under the word Fender, which was determined to be a modified 50's custom telecaster decal, and that the guitar now has an unknown set of modern 10mm tuners applied to it. They were also able to confirm details about the bridge pickup that leads us to believe it was never changed.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by CROSS_guitars » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:30 pm

So frustrating that all we have is blurry photos of the proto Jag-stang!

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:06 pm

CROSS_guitars wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:30 pm
So frustrating that all we have is blurry photos of the proto Jag-stang!
We have one clear shot and a semi clear shot from Larry Brooks. That's about it.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by CROSS_guitars » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:11 pm

AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:06 pm
CROSS_guitars wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:30 pm
So frustrating that all we have is blurry photos of the proto Jag-stang!
We have one clear shot and a semi clear shot from Larry Brooks. That's about it.
Is there a Larry Brooks pic of the Blue Jag-stang or the red?

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:30 pm

CROSS_guitars wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:11 pm
AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:06 pm
CROSS_guitars wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:30 pm
So frustrating that all we have is blurry photos of the proto Jag-stang!
We have one clear shot and a semi clear shot from Larry Brooks. That's about it.
Is there a Larry Brooks pic of the Blue Jag-stang or the red?
He sent me a picture of him holding blue when he completed it at the custom shop.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by CROSS_guitars » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:51 pm

Holy crap!
And are you not allowed to share it?

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:01 pm

CROSS_guitars wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:51 pm
Holy crap!
And are you not allowed to share it?
I never got his permission to share the whole thing, but I did post it in this thread somewhere. I cropped him out of it crudely and focused on the guitar. That's how we knew Earnie was full of shit, because it has a SD humbucker in it at the shop, not a DiMarzio like he claimed.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by CROSS_guitars » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:24 pm

Oh wow.
I must have missed this before!
Image

Probably the best shot I've see of it, although it's still a bit fuzzy tbh.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:34 pm

CROSS_guitars wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:24 pm
Oh wow.
I must have missed this before!
Image

Probably the best shot I've see of it, although it's still a bit fuzzy tbh.
It is, but considering the really grainy shots we've had to work with, even this non professional snap shot from 1993 told us a lot. It gave is a great representstion of the body shape. And if you look close enough at that bridge pickup, it's a White SD with silver logo on the bottom bobbin. It definitely does not have a black DiMarzio logo on the top right corner like red 2.0 does.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by OSGTemp » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:13 am

It was really cool to see that original Jag-Stang photo before it was shipped. The original always looked so much cooler than the mass produced models. Although most of this has to do with it being a lefty shape and the nitro finish. I think from memory if you were to flip that picture to righty, it still looks cool, but the actual difference between the original and mass produced version is only very slight when looking at it right handed, and the poly finish cheapens it a bit.

In relation to the Earnie at unplugged thing, whilst there might be some fact checking, maybe Earnie is remembering not actually Unplugged, but a few days before at the SST rehearsal facility in New York, could be that.

It later came out on LiveNirvana that Earnie at Kurt had a falling out before the In Utero tour, apparently due to some dynamic with Dave Grohl, who Earnie would ultimately tech for in Foo Fighters during 1995.

Its still pretty wild that Fender Japan made the first Lefty Mustangs for Kurt in 1993, particulary the Fiesta Red one. I was always wondering about that specific guitar since about 1998, no one on the internet seemed to notice or care at that time, and Fender never said anything. It was odd that they weren't cranking them out in the japan factory during the 1990's when it was all happening.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by AcrylicSuperman » Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:58 am

OSGTemp wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:13 am
It was really cool to see that original Jag-Stang photo before it was shipped. The original always looked so much cooler than the mass produced models. Although most of this has to do with it being a lefty shape and the nitro finish. I think from memory if you were to flip that picture to righty, it still looks cool, but the actual difference between the original and mass produced version is only very slight when looking at it right handed, and the poly finish cheapens it a bit.

In relation to the Earnie at unplugged thing, whilst there might be some fact checking, maybe Earnie is remembering not actually Unplugged, but a few days before at the SST rehearsal facility in New York, could be that.

It later came out on LiveNirvana that Earnie at Kurt had a falling out before the In Utero tour, apparently due to some dynamic with Dave Grohl, who Earnie would ultimately tech for in Foo Fighters during 1995.

Its still pretty wild that Fender Japan made the first Lefty Mustangs for Kurt in 1993, particulary the Fiesta Red one. I was always wondering about that specific guitar since about 1998, no one on the internet seemed to notice or care at that time, and Fender never said anything. It was odd that they weren't cranking them out in the japan factory during the 1990's when it was all happening.
I've always loved the blue prototype over what we got as well.

I did actually look into that. Jim Vimcent replaced Earnie fully by the end of november. I was able to get an idea of how involved each tech was with the Jagstang. Big John Duncan was pretty valuable there. There seems to be two specific things regarding the JB in the jagstang that doesn't line up. First is that he claimed that the guitar had a DiMarzio H8 in it. As you can see from Larry's photo in the custom shop, it has a Seymour Duncan in it at the factory. And second, Earnie does not seem to be at MTV Unplugged. It is just Jim Vincent and John Duncan. Even if Earnie claimed innolvement at another show, it still wouldn't be accurate because they pickups he claims were in there aren't there at all. Jim was under the impression that a pickup had been changed (via word of mouth from Earnie) but John Duncan doesn't seem to think the pickup.ever changed. John was there when it shipped to him and while there were things they discussed doing to it, he seemed to enjoy the pickup that was in it. I've seen Earnie be dead on about some things and wrong about others. I think 30 years is hard on the memory. Not judging the guy too hard by any means, but that specific piece of info we were able to debunk entirely.

I think it is cooler to know that somewhere in Japan, there are 4 lefty mustangs that were sold to the public that were made for Kurt Cobain. They're out there, somewhere. Only way you'll know for sure they are his is if the necks have Scotts name on the heel of the neck.

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Re: JAG-STANG Prototype - Reverse Engineering

Post by OSGTemp » Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:48 am

AcrylicSuperman wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:58 am
I think it is cooler to know that somewhere in Japan, there are 4 lefty mustangs that were sold to the public that were made for Kurt Cobain. They're out there, somewhere. Only way you'll know for sure they are his is if the necks have Scotts name on the heel of the neck.
Yeah, they will definitely still be out there, although if they were "known" we definitely would have seen the Fiesta Red ones by now, they would have been such an odd ball item that we would have seen pictures of them by now even if regular people owned them, particularly if they shipped with red tortoise guards. The blue ones would be more difficult, they would look like any late 90's MIJ lefty in Sonic Blue. It's also likely pre-internet that they would have sat in the Tokyo store for a long time too, and it likely that MIJ lefty mustangs would have been widely available at least by 1995.

Although Kurt's Sonic Blue Mustangs are so iconic, particularly at the Live and Loud show, I was so excited to go to the EMP in Seattle to see it, but actually when I saw it in person, its really just a MIJ Mustang ;D . I remember staring at it for a bit at laughing thinking, "its just a mustang". It was the same vibe with the Competition Mustang in the next room - got to see it up close and again same thing... just a Mustang like any other!

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