Staytrem sustain vs a Mastery or Halon?

For help with setups and other technical issues.
User avatar
Vendetagainst
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:42 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Staytrem sustain vs a Mastery or Halon?

Post by Vendetagainst » Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:09 pm

Hey y’all,

I contacted John over at Staytrem and he’s willing to make a 12 in radius bridge for me! It wasn’t much more than a regular Staytrem, so I bought it. Before I receive it, I was wondering how the sustain of a Staytrem compares to a Mastery or a Halon. I have some extra cash so I was considering getting a Halon as well, and I already have a Mastery installed. I’m replacing the Mastery due to uncontrollable pinging and rattling from the posts, despite changing them. Also the Mastery looks a bit ugly, imo.

Thanks y’all!

User avatar
JSett
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 8803
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:33 pm
Location: Old Hampshire, Old England

Re: Staytrem sustain vs a Mastery or Halon?

Post by JSett » Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:23 pm

Vendetagainst wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:09 pm
Hey y’all,

I contacted John over at Staytrem and he’s willing to make a 12 in radius bridge for me! It wasn’t much more than a regular Staytrem, so I bought it. Before I receive it, I was wondering how the sustain of a Staytrem compares to a Mastery or a Halon. I have some extra cash so I was considering getting a Halon as well, and I already have a Mastery installed. I’m replacing the Mastery due to uncontrollable pinging and rattling from the posts, despite changing them. Also the Mastery looks a bit ugly, imo.

Thanks y’all!
I can't comment on the Halon (there's also about 849424352345 Halon combinations) but my summary of other options would be:

MOST SUSTAIN----------------------------------------------------------------------LEAST SUSTAIN -----------------------in the bin
Mastery- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Staytrem- - - Mustang- - - - - - - - - - - - - OG JM Bridge - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TOM

BRIGHT TONE----------------------------------------------------------------------------DARK TONE -----------------------in the bin
Mastery- - - - - - - - - - - - -OG JM BRIDGE- - - - Mustang- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Staytrem - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TOM

I prefer the look and feel of the Staytrem over the Mastery but couldn't vibe with the loss of high-end/attack it brought. And I much prefer not having to mess with a rocking bridge.
Silly Rabbit, don't you know scooped mids are for kids?

User avatar
Vendetagainst
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 87
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:42 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Staytrem sustain vs a Mastery or Halon?

Post by Vendetagainst » Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:32 am

johnnysomersett wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:23 pm
Vendetagainst wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:09 pm
Hey y’all,

I contacted John over at Staytrem and he’s willing to make a 12 in radius bridge for me! It wasn’t much more than a regular Staytrem, so I bought it. Before I receive it, I was wondering how the sustain of a Staytrem compares to a Mastery or a Halon. I have some extra cash so I was considering getting a Halon as well, and I already have a Mastery installed. I’m replacing the Mastery due to uncontrollable pinging and rattling from the posts, despite changing them. Also the Mastery looks a bit ugly, imo.

Thanks y’all!
I can't comment on the Halon (there's also about 849424352345 Halon combinations) but my summary of other options would be:

MOST SUSTAIN----------------------------------------------------------------------LEAST SUSTAIN -----------------------in the bin
Mastery- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Staytrem- - - Mustang- - - - - - - - - - - - - OG JM Bridge - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TOM

BRIGHT TONE----------------------------------------------------------------------------DARK TONE -----------------------in the bin
Mastery- - - - - - - - - - - - -OG JM BRIDGE- - - - Mustang- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Staytrem - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TOM

I prefer the look and feel of the Staytrem over the Mastery but couldn't vibe with the loss of high-end/attack it brought. And I much prefer not having to mess with a rocking bridge.
Ah cool, this is interesting to know! Reading other sources and watching other videos, I may also get the Halon and give that a shot, I'm sure I can sell the Staytrem if I don't like it. Thankfully, John is willing to send me the nylon bushings as well so it will be non-rocking. My Mastery does sound great but the rattling is just becoming unbearable. As well, while I strum the saddles slide which is super bizarre.

User avatar
Jonesie
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 4047
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:00 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Staytrem sustain vs a Mastery or Halon?

Post by Jonesie » Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:42 am

Vendetagainst wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:32 am
johnnysomersett wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:23 pm
Vendetagainst wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:09 pm
Hey y’all,

I contacted John over at Staytrem and he’s willing to make a 12 in radius bridge for me! It wasn’t much more than a regular Staytrem, so I bought it. Before I receive it, I was wondering how the sustain of a Staytrem compares to a Mastery or a Halon. I have some extra cash so I was considering getting a Halon as well, and I already have a Mastery installed. I’m replacing the Mastery due to uncontrollable pinging and rattling from the posts, despite changing them. Also the Mastery looks a bit ugly, imo.

Thanks y’all!
I can't comment on the Halon (there's also about 849424352345 Halon combinations) but my summary of other options would be:

MOST SUSTAIN----------------------------------------------------------------------LEAST SUSTAIN -----------------------in the bin
Mastery- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Staytrem- - - Mustang- - - - - - - - - - - - - OG JM Bridge - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TOM

BRIGHT TONE----------------------------------------------------------------------------DARK TONE -----------------------in the bin
Mastery- - - - - - - - - - - - -OG JM BRIDGE- - - - Mustang- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Staytrem - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TOM

I prefer the look and feel of the Staytrem over the Mastery but couldn't vibe with the loss of high-end/attack it brought. And I much prefer not having to mess with a rocking bridge.
Ah cool, this is interesting to know! Reading other sources and watching other videos, I may also get the Halon and give that a shot, I'm sure I can sell the Staytrem if I don't like it. Thankfully, John is willing to send me the nylon bushings as well so it will be non-rocking. My Mastery does sound great but the rattling is just becoming unbearable. As well, while I strum the saddles slide which is super bizarre.
I have a staytrem with the nylon bushings and it works great. I have to actively try to get my Jag to go out of tune.

User avatar
GreenKnee
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1212
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:05 am
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Staytrem sustain vs a Mastery or Halon?

Post by GreenKnee » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:38 am

Yeah those Staytrem with nylon bushings work a treat. I have one fitted to my '62 and it's rock solid.

User avatar
Dr Tony Balls
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:05 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Re: Staytrem sustain vs a Mastery or Halon?

Post by Dr Tony Balls » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:47 am

You forgot this metric:

ACTUALLY HAS SIX SADDLES----------------------------------------------------------------------ONLY HAS THREE -----------------------in the bin
Staytrem - - Mustang - - OG JM Bridge - - TOM - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mastery- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Instagram: thetonyballs

User avatar
Larry Mal
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 19673
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:25 pm
Location: Saint Louis, MO

Re: Staytrem sustain vs a Mastery or Halon?

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:52 am

johnnysomersett wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:23 pm


I can't comment on the Halon (there's also about 849424352345 Halon combinations) but my summary of other options would be:

MOST SUSTAIN----------------------------------------------------------------------LEAST SUSTAIN -----------------------in the bin
Mastery- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Staytrem- - - Mustang- - - - - - - - - - - - - OG JM Bridge - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TOM

BRIGHT TONE----------------------------------------------------------------------------DARK TONE -----------------------in the bin
Mastery- - - - - - - - - - - - -OG JM BRIDGE- - - - Mustang- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Staytrem - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TOM

I prefer the look and feel of the Staytrem over the Mastery but couldn't vibe with the loss of high-end/attack it brought. And I much prefer not having to mess with a rocking bridge.
The Halon is an unknown factor to me but I would otherwise agree with this. I would think that the Halon would have the typical characteristics that yo find with other bridges based on the saddle type, the brass will sound like brass on a Telecaster type guitar for the most part, etc.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

User avatar
Larry Mal
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 19673
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:25 pm
Location: Saint Louis, MO

Re: Staytrem sustain vs a Mastery or Halon?

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:07 am

Dr Tony Balls wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:47 am
You forgot this metric:

ACTUALLY HAS SIX SADDLES----------------------------------------------------------------------ONLY HAS THREE -----------------------in the bin
Staytrem - - Mustang - - OG JM Bridge - - TOM - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Mastery- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Been a while since I've said this, but the number of saddles that a guitar needs is one, or any string instrument, for that matter. If you don't believe me, ask just almost any acoustic guitar, any classical guitar, banjo, cello, violin, viola, sitar, balalaika, bouzouki, I could go on and on.

The reason electric guitars have multiple saddles (and the Mastery actually has two, not three) is for the benefit of the guitar maker, who can use the adjustable saddles to cover up quite a lot of slop on the guitar, especially bridge placement and neck angle.

But quality acoustic guitar makers simply get the bridge in the right spot and with the right saddle for intonation, because they know that adjustable saddles are of no benefit to the actual sound of the guitar, and it's not like some idiots haven't tried.

From the viewpoint of sound, the less saddles the better, two is better then three, three is better than six, one is best of all. This of course assumes that one has a guitar that is well made and doesn't need any corrective action at the saddle, and that one has a saddle that has been cut to compensate for the different string thicknesses, and that the saddle compensation is in agreement with whether or not one is using a wound or unwound G string.

In short, if anyone thinks the Mastery bridge is somehow less accurate than something with six saddles when using the string set it's designed to work with (unwound G), well, it's not. It sounds a lot better, also.

Here you go, I'll add to my response. This is the typical saddle positions on a guitar for wound vs unwound G, your guitar's saddles are probably arranged like this (there can be exceptions):

Image

And I'm going to quote from this Quora answer here to help folks understand.

The reason guitar saddles have to be intonated is because the effective vibrating length of a string is shorter than its actual length. The two ends of the string are held fast in the nut and saddle slots and the very ends of the string are kept from vibrating.

If you think of each end of the string as a sort of pendulum, it’s like it was held rigidly in a vise rather than in a pivot. If the string were infinitely flexible, this wouldn’t be an issue, but because it resists flexing, its effective pivot points are not exactly where the string crosses the nut and the saddle, shortening the part of the string that oscillates to produce a tone a bit and making its pitch higher than what we want for that oscillating length. So we adjust that frequency lower by lengthening the string at the saddle.

It’s the nature of steel wire that a thicker wire is stiffer than a thinner wire. It follows, therefore, that we need to lengthen a thicker string more than a thinner string. On an intonated saddle, the low E string’s length is adjusted to be longer than the A string, which in turn is longer than the D string.

When we get to the G string, electric and acoustic guitars diverge. Acoustics usually use a wound G string while electrics use a plain G string. When you look at an acoustic bridge (top image - wound G), the G string is shorter than the D string, but on an electric bridge (bottom image - unwound G) it’s longer than the D string.

If you replace the whole set of strings with a lighter or heavier set, the intonation will change a tiny bit, but it will almost never need an adjustment because the relative stiffnesses of the strings in the set will be about the same. If you change one string in a set with a lighter or heavier one, that particular string will have a little less perfect intonation than the others.


So you see that it's not some peculiar facet of your guitar that needs intonation (for the most part), it's the relative stiffness of the strings, which is a known factor and can be, uh, compensated for, literally.

And you can see in that image above that the Mastery bridge will conform quite well to the needs of string sets with an unwound G, it won't do wound very well, but I guess they feel that accommodating the relative few electric guitarists that use wound G strings wasn't worth it.

You know what did not do well? The first Telecaster bridges, which had three saddles, but none of the saddles were compensated, so two strings had to share the same vibrating length as the other, meaning one but not both could be in perfect position. So, if Fender would have done a single saddle with the compensation you see built into it above, it would have been better. The adjustable saddles were in fact a detriment here and the guitar could never have good intonation.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

User avatar
GreenKnee
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1212
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:05 am
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Staytrem sustain vs a Mastery or Halon?

Post by GreenKnee » Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:22 am

And yet the Telecaster was insanely successful and hasn't gone down in history as a guitar that just cannot play in tune.

It's easy to get lost down the rabbit hole of intonation and trying to make it an exact science, but as soon as you fret a note wouldn't the saddle position be ever-so-slightly out again? I guess it's close enough though. Which is my point, as long as it's close enough no one can tell.

I have guitars with 6, 3, 2 and 1 adjustable saddles. My Gretchen White Falcon has a bridge like this:

Image

Going off the look of it, it shouldn't intonate. It's adjusted by moving the whole bridge, it is not fixed down. All you can do is intonate the high and low E strings and then hope the others fall in line. Which they do. I've used string sets with wound and unwound G strings and they both intonate well enough.

User avatar
Larry Mal
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 19673
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:25 pm
Location: Saint Louis, MO

Re: Staytrem sustain vs a Mastery or Halon?

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:48 am

GreenKnee wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:22 am
And yet the Telecaster was insanely successful and hasn't gone down in history as a guitar that just cannot play in tune.

It's easy to get lost down the rabbit hole of intonation and trying to make it an exact science, but as soon as you fret a note wouldn't the saddle position be ever-so-slightly out again? I guess it's close enough though. Which is my point, as long as it's close enough no one can tell.
Right. And the other factors that make the guitar somewhat out of tune, like your finger pressure and equal temperament in general, are factors as well.

Good enough is good enough (although really there's no excuse for not having some kind of compensation). To me it's a little bizarre that Gretsch cared enough to have a roller bridge for the strings to come back to tune after vibrato use but didn't care enough to stagger the strings for accurate intonation.

Still, it's funny that electric guitarists have been sold on the idea that the six saddle adjustable bridge somehow represents some kind of technological innovation that will allow them to have amazing and perfect intonation and don't realize how these bridges just allowed the factories to roll out guitars with much looser tolerances than they would have been able to if they would have used a fixed single bridge like acoustic guitars do.

A good example is the Gibson "harmonica bridge" , which had a much longer travel distance for the saddles than the ABR-1 bridge that it replaced. This allowed Gibson a lot more leeway for what would be considered an "acceptable" instrument to get out the door.

Before you feel any better about Fender, those guitars have height adjustable saddles and shims in the neck to compensate for the uneven neck pockets.

All this adjustable stuff is for the factory's benefit. None of it benefits you at all, in some cases it's an out and out detriment, just look at the original Jazzmaster bridge, adjustable as hell, and this was a bad thing.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

User avatar
Dr Tony Balls
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:05 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Re: Staytrem sustain vs a Mastery or Halon?

Post by Dr Tony Balls » Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:56 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:07 am
In short, if anyone thinks the Mastery bridge is somehow less accurate than something with six saddles when using the string set it's designed to work with (unwound G), well, it's not.
Its not less accurate. It intonates a pretty standard string set just fine. Its just less flexible than a six saddle design. If you want to use any set of strings in which the top three are not homogeneous (i.e. all wound/all plain), or the bottom three aren't homogeneous, then a Mastery will not intonate.

GreenKnee wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:22 am
And yet the Telecaster was insanely successful and hasn't gone down in history as a guitar that just cannot play in tune.
Thats a pretty absurd point. The Telecaster was designed ~50-60 years before the Mastery, when things were pretty standardized. There wasnt a whole lot of variety in tunings being used or string sets being used. Fender eventually changed that design to 6 saddles when they realized the value to players. Mastery not doing that in the modern world is just lazy engineering, imo. They went through a long development process to build a better mousetrap and then stopped short of making it the best mousetrap.
Instagram: thetonyballs

User avatar
GreenKnee
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1212
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:05 am
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Staytrem sustain vs a Mastery or Halon?

Post by GreenKnee » Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:29 am

I would guess (I haven't checked so may be wrong) that most of the Telecasters that Fender sells have 3 saddle bridges. That's where all the tone lies, isn't it? The average player doesn't care if a string's intonation is slightly off. They would rather have the mojo of the original design and deal with the same compromise

User avatar
Larry Mal
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 19673
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:25 pm
Location: Saint Louis, MO

Re: Staytrem sustain vs a Mastery or Halon?

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:45 am

GreenKnee wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:29 am
I would guess (I haven't checked so may be wrong) that most of the Telecasters that Fender sells have 3 saddle bridges. That's where all the tone lies, isn't it? The average player doesn't care if a string's intonation is slightly off. They would rather have the mojo of the original design and deal with the same compromise
I took a look, actually. They are still all over the place.

The American Ultra and some other stuff still has the miserable six saddle bridge on there. I thought they had killed it off also. It sucks.

The American Professional has a compensated three saddle bridge. This is the best choice here.

The American Original still inexplicably has the three saddle non-compensated bridge, making it a bizarre choice that can never be intonated. I had that on one of my Telecasters, except mine had threaded saddles kind of like an original Jazzmaster bridge. Awful.

But my point is you don't need to accept intonation being off with a three saddle, two saddle, or one saddle bridge. They don't even cost anything.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

User avatar
Larry Mal
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 19673
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:25 pm
Location: Saint Louis, MO

Re: Staytrem sustain vs a Mastery or Halon?

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:59 am

Dr Tony Balls wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:56 am


Thats a pretty absurd point. The Telecaster was designed ~50-60 years before the Mastery, when things were pretty standardized. There wasnt a whole lot of variety in tunings being used or string sets being used. Fender eventually changed that design to 6 saddles when they realized the value to players. Mastery not doing that in the modern world is just lazy engineering, imo. They went through a long development process to build a better mousetrap and then stopped short of making it the best mousetrap.
A couple of points. When the Telecaster was designed, it's not like having a compensated bridge that could be made to have great intonation was unknown.

Take a look at this 1949 Gibson ES-125. It has a wooden bridge carved to have intonation as part of it. Note that it has a bridge designed for a wound G string, which it does, in fact, have. If you put on other strings it will not intonate properly.

Leo Fender didn't do a compensated bridge on the Telecaster because he did not, in fact, get it right the first time. In fact, the original Telecaster design is the worst possible, because you absolutely cannot have accurate intonation with a wound G or an unwound G.

As to your second point, I don't know what to tell you. You seem to keep laboring under the idea that a six saddle design is somehow better or the "best", but I would rather have a high quality bridge that worked and sounded good rather than have one with the emphasis on strings sets I'm not going to use.

Kind of like a hybrid bike, which I used to have one of. It wasn't a road bike, it wasn't an offroad bike, it did neither thing particularly well.

Mastery bridge could have done a six saddle design but they did not, because six saddle designs like everything else have limitations. I mean you can't imagine that they didn't consider the six saddle bridge considering that they designed their flagship product to directly replace one, one that is pretty much considered a bad design and has been for decades.

One of the main limitations of the six saddle bridge is that the string force on the individual saddle is much less than it is with other designs, which affects the sound, and leads to situations in which the saddles and strings can move in ways you don't want to, not to mention that the screws in the saddles that regulate the height loosen and sometimes at very bad times.

So that's why Mastery has three strings per saddle, to maximize string pressure on the bridge. This is why they do, in fact, add sustain and make other changes to the sound.

The Staytrem bridge is excellent because while it has six saddles, they otherwise adjust in no way. So if you really did want esoteric string sets to be in play, that would be the one.

The Halon bridge is basically a tweaked compensated Telecaster design adapted for the offset guitar. Probably an excellent bridge.

But the six saddle bridge is in no sense the best a bridge can be, and that'll be my last word on the subject.
Last edited by Larry Mal on Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

User avatar
Dr Tony Balls
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:05 am
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Contact:

Re: Staytrem sustain vs a Mastery or Halon?

Post by Dr Tony Balls » Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:01 am

You're both operating in the land of "standard" string sets, for which Mastery works fine. I like the option of flexibility to use whatever strings i choose.
Instagram: thetonyballs

Post Reply