Warmoth mahogany Jag Stang intonation issues

[Catsandcatsandcats]

Hey y'all, I put together a warmoth jag stang with a fender jaguar neck recently and I can't get the low E, A, and D strings to intonate properly--with the E bring the worst, the D slightly better, and the A occasionally intonating properly.

Here's what I've done so far: the saddles have been extended pretty much as far as they can go (the D is fully pushed towards neck). I can push the saddles further towards the neck on the E and A but I haven't because the intonation seems to improve/degrade in waves: sometimes it gets better when I loosen the screw, so I loosen it more, but then it gets worse, I do it again and it's better, then worse, etc.

Other than that, some possibly pertinent factors are:

A) I hard tailed the trem with two threaded washers underneath the hotdog and the posts tightened all the way down--the break angle is really good. Problem still the same.

B) I put a .25° shim in. I did this right away so I haven't tried playing without the shim.

C) I've tried 3 different string sizes (first 10's, then 9's, then 11's) cuz I suspected an improperly cut nut (it doesn't look great) since intonation seemed to get better when I placed slips of paper under the strings at the nut. The situation improved somewhat with 11's but they also added relief (concave) to neck, raising action somewhat (I like to keep my neck straight when shimmed). Not gonna touch the truss rod though cuz I'm prolly gonna go back down to 10's as the intonation improvement isn't worth how stiff the strings are.

D) the neck pocket was extremely tight when I installed it. Quite literally had to wiggle it in. I suspected the neck wasn't properly aligned side to side, so I loosened it and pulled it towards the low E and retightened. The strings look like they're running parallel now. I've checked to make sure the neck is flush with the body multiple times and it is.

Other info: mustang bridge with adjustable large saddles for the 9.5" radius neck. Hot dog is still facing the factory direction with strings wrapped around it. I haven't taped the bridge posts yet (forgot when restringing), but they are centered and stable. Sorry for the long posts but this guitar is making me tear my hair out (even though it still sounds great [so long as I dont go to far past fret 12 on the low strings]). Any help is appreciated.

[timtam]

If you measure 12" from the 12th fret, where does that come to on the bridge ? Also check that the strings are clearing the front and back edge of the bridge plate; fouling there can produce erratic intonation.

[Catsandcatsandcats]

If you measure 12" from the 12th fret, where does that come to on the bridge ? Also check that the strings are clearing the front and back edge of the bridge plate; fouling there can produce erratic intonation.

I'll have to measure when I get home later today. I'm measuring from the actual fret wire, I'm guessing? I do know the strings are clearing the bridge plates. I've had some intonation screws touching the g and d strings but I've managed to get them to clear with a little tweaking. I've thought about flipping the bridge backwards but I'm not sure it will do anything

[Catsandcatsandcats]

If you measure 12" from the 12th fret, where does that come to on the bridge ? Also check that the strings are clearing the front and back edge of the bridge plate; fouling there can produce erratic intonation.

I just measured 12" from 12th fret, and it ends up 1/4" past the front edge of bridge

[DeathJag]

Just to let you know, I am personally waiting for you to start posting in the two cat threads! Great user name.



Oh yeah - sorry your build got messed up!

[andy_tchp]

How much neck relief is there?

[timtam]

If you measure 12" from the 12th fret, where does that come to on the bridge ? Also check that the strings are clearing the front and back edge of the bridge plate; fouling there can produce erratic intonation.

I just measured 12" from 12th fret, and it ends up 1/4" past the front edge of bridge

OK sounds like the bridge is at least in about the right place with your Warmoth body/jag neck combination. Can you do top/side pics of the bridge so we can see this D saddle that needs to be as far forward as it will go, in order to intonate (and the break angles and string clearances, with your 0.25deg shim) ? The erratic inconsistency in low E and A saddle intonation just sounds odd. BTW you want low friction in the nut slots (for the current string gauge) so that your adjustments are immediately reflected in frequency change.

People with better knowledge of Mustang trems might have experienced intonation issues related to that (although you have it basically locked) ?

And to you intonation technique, I assume you're comparing (via tuner/ear) the 12th fretted note to either the 12th fret harmonic or the open string ?

[jorri]

For sure, it doesn't quite make sense. Every time its fretted at the 12th, if the neck is the same and not moving in the pocket then surely its a bridge issue? Just judging by the non-linear way intonation changes i don't know what would cause that other than something like the intonation screw (neck end) touching strings, or something coming loosened (like the height screws) or improperly (not) moving the saddle as you turn the intonation. I suppose it could happen at the other end of the guitar, but seems less likely, as it would have to be a pretty bad nut.....basically, some anomaly of string contact- or at least i couldn't think of anything else possible!

[Catsandcatsandcats]

Hey, sorry for not replying, been working a lot of OT, but...I think I might have figured it out; there's multiple things going on due to the mustang trem and bridge system being more complex than it seems.

I've managed to get all the strings to intonate except for the D at this point, which is the one mystery I'm still working on.

So...the wonky intonation was the result, imo, of the rocking bridge: the 90 degree screw driver I was using was hard to fit behind the bridge for intonation--what I think was happening was I was rocking the bridge when turning the screws, which would push the bridge forward in the thimbles, throwing everything off. I kept pulling the bridge back and got more consistency--but I think the D simply needs more distance from the tailpiece to intonate

Which brings me to the tailpiece: the way I decked it still allows for it to hinge on the knife's edge of the dynamic vibrato posts slightly, which resulted in it leaning forward when the strings were wrapped around it. Previously, with the springs on the bottom slots, it was leaning back, which gave more room for the D to intonate better--idk why the E and A wouldn't intonate well when it was like this though tbh

Likewise, looking at the neck pocket, it seems that it may be angled. I.e. I don't need a shim. So another part of what's happening is, I think, the strings (and their tension) are too high--and I have to say, the tension on this guitar is akin to a strat, nothing like a 24" scale should be. When I lowered the bridge and saddles as far as they could go (without too much buzz [got a little bit high up on the E and D string]), the A and E started to intonate.

So, when I have time, I'm gonna do the following: 1) take the shim out, 2) deck the tailpiece either Cobain-style (flipping the hot dog and putting it flat against trem plate) or use thinner washers/nuts below and above the place (to both lower the tail piece and ensure the posts stay straight up and down, not leaning), 3) tape the bridge posts, 4) flip the bridge for easier intonation, and 5) put tens on.

I prolly won't be able to do it til this weekend but I have a feeling this will finally get ALL the strings intonated correctly. I'll let y'all know, but thank you for your help: several comments in this thread helped clarify what was wrong and have definitely improved my setup.

[Lost In Autumn]

if the bridge is decked, yet the strings remain too high and there is buzzing, you most certainly need a shim.

[Catsandcatsandcats]

if the bridge is decked, yet the strings remain too high and there is buzzing, you most certainly need a shim.

When I say too high, I don't mean my action, I apologize if for the confusion. The action is low due to the shim, but the bridge is high--it looks kinda like an arch top guitar from the side. My guess is the neck pocket is angled for about. 5° already and I turned it into a .75° angle with the shim. I had this same issue with one of my jags and I had to take .25° of shim out. Guess the lesson is to try a new guitar w/o the shim first

I can make the buzz stop, but then it throws off intonation. So I'm just gonna deal with the buzz (only have it low on the neck on the low E which I rarely use) for now until I do the repairs tomorrow or Sunday. It's also not like the buzz you get from low string tension on jags--as I said: the tension is way too high for a 24".

I lowered the bridge even more and now everything's intonating decently. So I'm convinced that if I can get the bridge down even lower by taking the shim out and lowering the tailpiece by a bit, that I can get this baby intonating even better minus the buzz. The other issue is the nut def looks like it's cut for 9's. My vintera jag came with 9's and the slots are even wider. So lots of things going on with this badboy--might have to learn how to fix nut slots. Never done that before.

But yeah, I'm gonna try fixing it this weekend and I'll gladly eat crow and let you know if you were right and I was wrong

[Catsandcatsandcats]

Just an update for anyone curious: the repairs listed above fixed everything except for the low E string. Still the same problem: if I lower the bridge enough the intonation works but I get buzzing. Did a truss rod adjustment and its a little better, but I think the only thing that will fully fix the low E's issues at this point is putting a mastery bridge on it, which I plan to do in the future.

But I don't really play high on the low E anyway so the guitar is functional at this point and sounds great. Thanks to everyone who chimed in