Shim voodoo?

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bluemonday
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Shim voodoo?

Post by bluemonday » Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:40 pm

So I bought a CV Bass VI, took the neck off, bought some La Bella flats, and my Staytrem just came (yay!). The thing that is making me hesitate to put it all back together is shims. I bought a set of three plastic full neck pocket shims. Something about plastic sandwiched between wood didn't seem right. Then I got to reading the gear sites and there are lots of theories. Some say the old Fender style thin strip is fine. Others say it leaves an air gap beause the neck heel does not have full contact with the pocket. Even worse, they say that over time it will cause a neck bump. Some swear by full pocket shims in maple or some kind of wood. This makes the most sense and I bought some maple veneer for the purpose of making my own shim.

I'm starting to feel like I'm overthinking it. I definitely have paralysis by analysis because my guitar is still in pieces and I would rather be playing it. Should I just buy what Fender used for decades and be done with it?

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Larry Mal
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Re: Shim voodoo?

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:54 pm

Use the plastic until the wood ones are done.
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Re: Shim voodoo?

Post by T70 » Fri Jul 08, 2022 1:07 pm

Get the wood ones from StewMac, they're pretty nice.

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bluemonday
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Re: Shim voodoo?

Post by bluemonday » Fri Jul 08, 2022 1:15 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2022 12:54 pm
Use the plastic until the wood ones are done.
And the only thing that's holding up the wood one up is me. No reason not to make it a little project for this weekend!
T70 wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2022 1:07 pm
Get the wood ones from StewMac, they're pretty nice.
Even though this may be shaping up into one of those "penny wise and pound foolish" scenarios, I just could not see springing for the StewMac ones. Now I've probably spent just about as much (in money and energy) as if I'd gone that way in the first place. I've learned that lesson before, too! :squint:

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Re: Shim voodoo?

Post by Scout » Fri Jul 08, 2022 5:15 pm

You can easily make your own shims out of maple veneer, sandpaper and double sided tape.

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Re: Shim voodoo?

Post by jorri » Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:50 am

I'd say uncoated business card material is fine as it compresses a little. Cut about width of the screws.

when you start stacking them heavily then over-tightening neck screws, especially with harder material (picks? actual wood that's not whole pocket- maybe!) it can do a neck bump thing but otherwise it should be fine. Wouldn't go over about two stacked up.

Yeh stewmacs are fine apparently. not really worth the shipping though to UK!

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Re: Shim voodoo?

Post by Sweetfinger » Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:14 pm

To use a full pocket shim the piece has to be cut at a precise angle. I don't subscribe to the "needs full contact" theory. For all you know, the best sounding Strats, Teles, and offsets have gaps and the "meh" guitars have no shims.
I've seen factory shims in many vintage Fenders.
If you're shimming quite a bit, it's possible to deform the neck over time if you crush the neck into the back edge of the pocket, or only have a thin strip of shim at the heel and overtighten the two innermost bolts.
I usually make a shim that extends from the heel back past those two innermost bolts enough that the pressure point on the neck is right at the bolts.
If you're using, or thinking of using a full pocket shim that doesn't have an angle, you're not fixing anything.

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Re: Shim voodoo?

Post by JSett » Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:59 am

I still use a bit of business card or a plectrum...it's worked fine for me for decades and never had any ill effects. I'm not sure I subscribe to the snake-oil of 'full contact' shims or material choices etc. Fender just chucked in a little bit of plastic, card, sandpaper, whatever they had to hand that would otherwise go in the bin - all of which did the job fine.
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Re: Shim voodoo?

Post by T70 » Mon Jul 11, 2022 5:37 am

bluemonday wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2022 1:15 pm
T70 wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2022 1:07 pm
Get the wood ones from StewMac, they're pretty nice.
Even though this may be shaping up into one of those "penny wise and pound foolish" scenarios, I just could not see springing for the StewMac ones. Now I've probably spent just about as much (in money and energy) as if I'd gone that way in the first place. I've learned that lesson before, too! :squint:
I hear you, StewMac's pricing and especially their shipping cost on small items is hard to swallow sometimes. Since your guitar is new I'm sure a standard cardboard/plastic shim at the back of the pocket would be fine for a few decades. They will cause a fretboard hump but it takes a long time, more of a known issue on vintage gear.

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Re: Shim voodoo?

Post by øøøøøøø » Wed Jul 13, 2022 12:42 am

A lot of the guitar forum talk about stuff like this is completely empirically untested.

It's just stuff that "seems like it ought to probably be true" to someone.

In the real world, almost all of this stuff is as likely to help as it is to hinder, and probably more likely to make no appreciable difference at all.

There was no such thing as a "full pocket shim" until relatively recently, and it seems to fit that category to me... I'm not sure the impacts (or lack thereof) have really been tested by anyone. It just "seems like it ought to be better"

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Re: Shim voodoo?

Post by bluemonday » Wed Jul 13, 2022 6:41 am

I've thought about this too. It seems like something born of guitar forums as were other things like this. After all, the sounds of (most?) vintage guitars everyone loves have these damaging shims from the factory.

The only thing that did make sense to me is that a tight neck-to-pocket fit is a desirable thing, and that any object that doesn't cover the full pocket would keep that from happening.

I wouldn't remove the neck of a perfectly good--and especially vintage--guitar just to put in a full shim, but in my case since I am setting up a new guitar from scratch which will surely need a shim, I figured I might as well do it.

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Re: Shim voodoo?

Post by øøøøøøø » Wed Jul 13, 2022 3:17 pm

One thing that I find kind of reassuring is the shocking lack of correlation between "good workmanship" and inspiring instruments.

I've played expertly-made boutique guitars, crafted with love and care (hand-selected, tap-tuned woods... workmanship so careful and precise that they'd practically hold together with no glue or hardware at all) that still managed to just feel totally cold and uninspired.

Then you pick up a busted Kay that was thrown together almost literally from scrap wood and trash (then trampled on in a damp basement for 50 years), and it's brilliant.

So I think we can pretty safely let go of anxieties that some tiny detail is going to compromise the sound or vibe of a guitar.

What I feel I've learned is that chasing after small optimizations is kind of pointless in most cases. If an instrument is immediately, viscerally satisfying there's not much you can do that will spoil it. And if it's not really doing it for you, there's likewise not much that will save it.

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Re: Shim voodoo?

Post by JSett » Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:23 pm

Many people listen with their wallets. And confirmation bias is a wonderful phenomenon.
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Re: Shim voodoo?

Post by bluemonday » Thu Jul 14, 2022 3:11 pm

It's interesting to watch gear forum talk and catchphrases make it into the literature. I am certain that the idea of a thin lacquer coat that lets the guitar resonate and breath started on the gear page or strat talk, tdpri, etc. I have read those exact words in the Fender catalogs.

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Re: Shim voodoo?

Post by Scout » Fri Jul 15, 2022 12:44 pm

It is a known issue, I have no first hand experience with it but have discussed it with full time luthiers.
Woodworking is full of different methods, best practice is always preferred.

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