Jaguar Strangle Switch on Push Pull?

For help with setups and other technical issues.
Post Reply
User avatar
lawzenge
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:00 am

Jaguar Strangle Switch on Push Pull?

Post by lawzenge » Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:38 pm

I'd like to have the Jaguar's strangle switch wiring done on a Telecaster but via a push pull pot. Is there a wiring diagram that would show me how to do this? It would be great to have some extra treble on my Tele to really make it sing. Thanks!

User avatar
Norrin Radd
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 319
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:55 am

Re: Jaguar Strangle Switch on Push Pull?

Post by Norrin Radd » Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:14 pm

I’m of absolutely no help. Just wanted to say - cool idea. 8)

User avatar
timtam
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 2729
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:42 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Jaguar Strangle Switch on Push Pull?

Post by timtam » Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:25 pm

Fender has used two ways to wire the strangle switch: (1) the vintage-style where they simply short out the strangle cap with a SPDT switch, and (2) using a DPDT switch to take the cap completely out of circuit. Whether those two have exactly the same effect is a little unclear ( the suspicion is that it should make no difference), but for no obvious reason they used both strategies in the one guitar for the Marr jaguar's "bright"/strangle switches (schematic below). So if I were doing your suggested mod, I would probably use the push-pull DPDT to do the Marr series-style strangle to take the cap out of circuit (but using only one half of the switch to do the simpler vintage SPDT capacitor short would probably work just as well). And I would put it between the tele selector switch and the volume pot; that is, in the same relative position as the standard jag strangle switch.
Marr wiring diagram:
https://www.fmicassets.com/Damroot/Orig ... B_SISD.pdf

Image
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

User avatar
lawzenge
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:00 am

Re: Jaguar Strangle Switch on Push Pull?

Post by lawzenge » Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:18 am

timtam wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:25 pm
Fender has used two ways to wire the strangle switch: (1) the vintage-style where they simply short out the strangle cap with a SPDT switch, and (2) using a DPDT switch to take the cap completely out of circuit. Whether those two have exactly the same effect is a little unclear ( the suspicion is that it should make no difference), but for no obvious reason they used both strategies in the one guitar for the Marr jaguar's "bright"/strangle switches (schematic below). So if I were doing your suggested mod, I would probably use the push-pull DPDT to do the Marr series-style strangle to take the cap out of circuit (but using only one half of the switch to do the simpler vintage SPDT capacitor short would probably work just as well). And I would put it between the tele selector switch and the volume pot; that is, in the same relative position as the standard jag strangle switch.
Marr wiring diagram:
https://www.fmicassets.com/Damroot/Orig ... B_SISD.pdf

Image
Thanks for your reply. I'm a bit lost but how would it look on a push pull? I can solder and follow a basic wiring diagram but this looks out of my skillset.

User avatar
timtam
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 2729
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:42 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Jaguar Strangle Switch on Push Pull?

Post by timtam » Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:57 am

lawzenge wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 7:18 am
Thanks for your reply. I'm a bit lost but how would it look on a push pull? I can solder and follow a basic wiring diagram but this looks out of my skillset.
A push-pull is just a regular pot with a DPDT switch on top (but the pot and the switch circuits are entirely separate, unless of course you were to add some wiring to connect them). A push-pull's DPDT switch has exactly the same DPDT switching functionality as the Marr's (series) strangle uses (except the Marr's is in a slide switch form). There are two DPDT push-pull styles in common use, firstly the CTS style that is laid out differently to a regular (non-pot) DPDT switch (although its terminals do the same thing); secondly the traditional style, where the terminals look exactly like a regular DPDT switch (see Stewmac link below for those - see how the switch terminals are laid out the same as for the series strangle switch in the linked Marr PDF ?). The only 'advantage' of the CTS is that it's not usually quite as deep; which in a tele is your first issue - how deep is your cavity and will any P-P switch fit without removing wood ?* In every other way the CTS is a PITA.
https://www.stewmac.com/electronics/com ... pull-pots/

So take the way the series strangle is wired in the above schematic or the linked Marr wiring diagram PDF (if you're more comfortable with that), and plan to wire in exactly the same way to the terminals of the easier, traditional DPDT push-pull, like the Alpha ones above. The PDF wiring diagram literally shows you where the wires and cap go on the series strangle switch (which incidentally has nothing to do with 'series' as such). Just translate that to the same terminals on the push-pull's switch.

The only thing you have to check is that you get the strangle effect in the 'up' position of the push-pull switch, and the regular-tele/no-strangle in the down position (assuming that's what you want). It's always good to check switch positions with a multimeter (ie which terminals are connected when the switch is in each position ?) or you could end up with the opposite of what you want. It's all pretty straightforward, and sounds like that would be well within your skill set. ;)

Then look at your tele wiring diagram and figure out where you're going to insert the switch in that circuit, as I suggested earlier.

*EDIT: If cavity depth is a problem, you could wire the traditional style strangle circuit instead (the two options are likely electrically equivalent) with a CTS SPST push-pull pot (ie single pole switch instead of double pole). I haven't used one but they look less deep. The basic plan of action is the same - you'd just be drawing your wiring of the switch from the traditional strangle switch wiring instead of from the series strangle wiring. You just wire the cap across the terminals, which are shorted when the switch is on, effectively turning off the strangle (I just don't know for sure if that is the up or down position ... could be the up position, which would be somewhat annoying).
https://www.stewmac.com/electronics/com ... pots-spst/
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

User avatar
lawzenge
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:00 am

Re: Jaguar Strangle Switch on Push Pull?

Post by lawzenge » Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:29 pm

Well I finally got around to wiring it and have hit a wall. I followed standard Jaguar wiring and did this to a Strat with a master volume and tone. I am getting no output from the guitar. Wondering what I am doing wrong. Can anyone check my wiring and give me some tips? I feel like I tried everything.

The goal is to have the strangle activate on a push push pot. I also added a push push on the volume pot for 7 way sounds

https://imgur.com/a/l4WadGS

User avatar
timtam
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 2729
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:42 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Jaguar Strangle Switch on Push Pull?

Post by timtam » Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:06 pm

lawzenge wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:29 pm
The goal is to have the strangle activate on a push push pot. I also added a push push on the volume pot for 7 way sounds

https://imgur.com/a/l4WadGS
That's a complicated scheme. We would need to see your wiring diagram at least. In terms of testing, first check with your multimeter that there is no continuity between the hot and ground tabs on your output jack (otherwise the hot signal is shorting to ground somewhere). Then work backwards from the hot tab, keeping one prob on that tab. With the other probe, test at each successive connection/solder joint that the wires reach, to make sure that there is continuity - that is, a signal path - back to the output jack. Working in that direction, you will first be reaching the 'output' side of each component (switches, pots, etc) , and then swapping to the 'input' side to check that the signal can cross the component, as wired. Since you have no output, sooner or later you'll hit the point where the signal from the pickups has no continuous path to the output (regardless of switch positions). You could also work from the pickup end, following the hot on its course to the output jack.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

User avatar
tammyw
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 804
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:21 pm

Re: Jaguar Strangle Switch on Push Pull?

Post by tammyw » Sat Sep 17, 2022 8:32 am

Yeah, that's a tough one. I see what you're going for, and don't see any obvious problems tracing it visually. Those switches on the pots look kinda melted, but even if they were ruined that wouldn't necessarily lead to zero output unless it somehow shorted the pins to ground internally.
All pain and troubles melted away like lemon drops beyond the contrails across the sky.

User avatar
lawzenge
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:00 am

Re: Jaguar Strangle Switch on Push Pull?

Post by lawzenge » Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:19 pm

timtam wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:06 pm
lawzenge wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 11:29 pm
The goal is to have the strangle activate on a push push pot. I also added a push push on the volume pot for 7 way sounds

https://imgur.com/a/l4WadGS
That's a complicated scheme. We would need to see your wiring diagram at least. In terms of testing, first check with your multimeter that there is no continuity between the hot and ground tabs on your output jack (otherwise the hot signal is shorting to ground somewhere). Then work backwards from the hot tab, keeping one prob on that tab. With the other probe, test at each successive connection/solder joint that the wires reach, to make sure that there is continuity - that is, a signal path - back to the output jack. Working in that direction, you will first be reaching the 'output' side of each component (switches, pots, etc) , and then swapping to the 'input' side to check that the signal can cross the component, as wired. Since you have no output, sooner or later you'll hit the point where the signal from the pickups has no continuous path to the output (regardless of switch positions). You could also work from the pickup end, following the hot on its course to the output jack.
Thanks timtam and tammyw for your comments! I took another go at it and was able to get some sound out! Currently, the Tone, Volume, and Push/Pull to add Bridge work as expected. I don't hear much of a difference when the strangle is activated but when it is and I turn down the Tone, the volume is gone. I also went ahead and drew out the wiring to make it more readable. Please take a look and let me know what I can do to address the Volume drop when Tone is lowered on strangle activation. Do I need to add a resistor? Where would I put it?

https://imgur.com/a/4Vmmzgb

EDIT: played the guitar a bit and it seems to be working but not as expected. when I am in position 5 (Neck) and 4 (Middle/Neck) and turn on the strangle and activate the bridge pickup, I get a sort of 'cocked wah' sound. Oddly, the 'cocked wah' sound doesn't happen when in position 2 (Middle/Bridge) and 1 (Bridge) and strangle is activated. I didn't wire it so I can get the Neck in the Bridge and Bridge/Middle position. It's interesting but I'd like to better understand what is going on though.

User avatar
timtam
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 2729
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:42 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: Jaguar Strangle Switch on Push Pull?

Post by timtam » Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:30 am

Difficult to know what's going haywire given the number of combinations here, and the odd symptoms you now have. In terms of what's in your diagram, you have two routes into the circuit from the bridge pickup via the DPDT - the light blue wire into the blade switch, and the green wire direct from the DPDT to the volume pot. If you want the DPDT to take one or the other, the light blue would come off tab 2 and the purple would come into tab 4. That may be how you've wired it, but the diagram doesn't show it that way. We're also assuming that your Lace bridge (three ?) wire colour designations are correct.
Edit: it looks from the photo that it IS wired like the diagram. In which case when the bridge is ON via the DPDT, you have it going direct to the volume pot and also via the blade switch (when that is set to bridge). I would change that so it's one or the other, for clarity, as described above (also then, your only bridge plus strangle setting would be via the blade switch, with bridge DPDT OFF).

With odd pot behaviour, check first that the circuit grounds they rely on are intact. eg there is continuity from the output jack rim/ground tab to the tone circuit ground (at vol pot in your wiring, so you're checking that the vol pot tab is grounded too). And that bare cap and resistor legs are not shorting to anything when crammed back into the cavity (best covered with heatshrink), nor are adjacent switch or pot tabs shorting to bare wire ends. Esp with push-pulls on pots, I put heatshrink on all those close connections, so shorts are impossible.

Jags with strangle also have the 56k resistor (as shown in the Marr diagram above), the exact function of which has been debated. But it may be to retain some resistance across the tone pot when turned to zero. From your photo it looks like you may already have this in place ??

When there's any uncertainty, measure the actual values of your pots/resistors/caps with your multimeter to verify that the values are what you think, which should also verify that those components are functional.

It's also possible that the bridge pickup is out of phase with middle and/or neck. You can check each pickup's output polarity (when isolated) with the 'screw-driver test' on your multimeter.

If it's still not clear what's going on, I would probably also re-wire the strangle like the series bright (strangle) DPDT switch in the Marr circuit above. That way you know the strangle cap is not just shorted by the switch (1->3 as now), but actually out of circuit. But an electrical engineer might say that's redundant (ie the two approaches are equivalent ?) !
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

User avatar
lawzenge
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:00 am

Re: Jaguar Strangle Switch on Push Pull?

Post by lawzenge » Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:00 pm

timtam wrote:
Sat Sep 24, 2022 2:30 am
Difficult to know what's going haywire given the number of combinations here, and the odd symptoms you now have. In terms of what's in your diagram, you have two routes into the circuit from the bridge pickup via the DPDT - the light blue wire into the blade switch, and the green wire direct from the DPDT to the volume pot. If you want the DPDT to take one or the other, the light blue would come off tab 2 and the purple would come into tab 4. That may be how you've wired it, but the diagram doesn't show it that way. We're also assuming that your Lace bridge (three ?) wire colour designations are correct.
Edit: it looks from the photo that it IS wired like the diagram. In which case when the bridge is ON via the DPDT, you have it going direct to the volume pot and also via the blade switch (when that is set to bridge). I would change that so it's one or the other, for clarity, as described above (also then, your only bridge plus strangle setting would be via the blade switch, with bridge DPDT OFF).
The three pickups are standard Strat pickups with two leads: one for ground, one for hot. I swapped out the Lace for a strat pickup when making the diagram.

The wires in the diagram were a bit difficult to align. I meant to wire it so that the Bridge pickup goes into the DPDT and one goes to the standard lug for the bridge pickup (purple to light blue) and then direct so I can get Neck/Bridge and Neck/Middle/Bridge sounds. How would I wire it so that the Bridge can go through the tone pot/strangle when the DPDT is in the Up position? If I disconnect the green wire, won't I not be able to add the Bridge when in the Neck Position or Neck/Middle Position? I was following a Seymour Duncan wiring diagram and it was wired like that.

Post Reply