Opinions on this bridge repair?

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theg721
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Opinions on this bridge repair?

Post by theg721 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:03 am

I've got a Mustang with a StayTrem bridge and a Jaguar/Jazzmaster tremolo. I had an issue where the bridge thimbles have sunk into the body by about 1 or 2 cm, which meant that the bridge sat too low in them for the strings to not just be flat along the fretboard. I bodged it for a while by just putting some ripped up bits of paper into the thimbles for the bridge to sit on, which technically worked, but it the bridge kept sinking again eventually as the paper settled and I'd have to put some more in. So it was far from an ideal fix, but it's not like I've been playing a lot of gigs the last 2 years. Normally I do as much work on my guitars as I can, but in this case I took it to my local music shop to get their guitar guy to sort it out instead, and I've just got it back.

His solution was to wrap some sellotape around the bridge posts, holding the bridge in place at the correct height, and also preventing the bridge from tilting whatsoever. I'm a bit skeptical of this, both because it doesn't address the actual issue of the thimbles being sunken, and because I'm pretty sure I want the bridge to be able to tilt at least somewhat. He however reckons the Jaguar/Jazzmaster bridge is poorly designed, and that preventing it from tilting is an improvement. I also feel like if it's just friction between the sellotape and the thimbles holding the bridge at the correct height, it's going to sink eventually again anyway.

I just wanted to get a quick second opinion on this. Who's in the right here? Is this a decent fix or not?

On a related note, his setup he's done after the bridge fix has left the G string sounding kind of sitar-like past the 3rd fret, which it definitely wasn't before. It doesn't seem to be catching on anything as far as I can see, so any ideas for fixing that?

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Re: Opinions on this bridge repair?

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:17 am

I think it's a bad repair.
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Re: Opinions on this bridge repair?

Post by theg721 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:59 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:17 am
I think it's a bad repair.
What issues will I actually have with it? How do you think it should have been repaired instead?

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Re: Opinions on this bridge repair?

Post by pscates » Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:12 am

If he thinks the Jaguar/Jazzmaster bridge is "poorly designed", how good is he going to be at doing setup on such a guitar? Everything I've ever known about setting up a Tele or whatever else kinda goes out the window when working with the offset bridges.

I, too, think it's a bad repair. In that it's no "repair" at all, really.

His "fix" for your bridge-sinking woes sounds no better than your paper trick. And it fundamentally changes the design/function of that bridge (so does Mastery, but at least there you knowingly get to pay hundreds for the privilege). You didn't ask him to do that, to lock the bridge in, I take it? He's changing the way it works, which I wouldn't dig to start with.

Could something metal be dropped in the thimbles to give the posts something firmer to sit on?

I just don't know if paper, tape, etc. are the way to go in a fight against gravity/downward pressure.

I'm not an engineer or designer but if this is my guitar I think I'm going to Home Depot and find a metal/steel dowel the size of my thimble opening, cutting two to a length (quarter inch?) I think may work, dropping them down both thimble holes and resting my bridge on that. Just to see if it holds better/longer? Or take the free, DIY approach first: skip Home Depot and find a couple of small pebbles or nuts (metal nuts, not walnuts or pecans) and drop them down there to see if they hold the bridge up better/longer? Probably not ideal...

But if the entire thimble itself is sinking into the body(?), is that more of a soft wood issue where, no matter what, the thimble will continue sinking into the body as time goes on? Does that get into a plugging/redrilling scenario? I don't know. Re-reading your original post, that seems to be the case. That might require doing something to fix/address that issue (the true culprit) so you don't have to do all the little tricks/workarounds (that probably aren't going to last anyway).

Is this (the center or rightmost drawing) what's happening? Is the wood a softer variety and/or the thimble hole maybe drilled a bit too large (effect exaggerated below). That lip should be sitting proud of the guitar body, correct? I've seen them flush/countersunk on some guitars, but is it all below the surface (and proceeding further over time)? If so, does that call for a plug/re-drill scenario?

Image
Last edited by pscates on Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:37 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Opinions on this bridge repair?

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:50 am

Putting some kind of shim in the holes so the thimbles sit where they should is the fix. This is just a kludge that won’t last.
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Re: Opinions on this bridge repair?

Post by tammyw » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:06 am

If your thimbles have sunk that far, then they must be close to breaking through the back of the body. :o

I can't imagine something like that happening other than the holes being drilled the wrong size, and the fix should be to fill them with some good wood and re-drill correctly.

Is there anything else funny going on with the bridge? Are the bridge post height screws already fully extended? They need to still be engaged in the metal part of the posts. Are the plastic ends on the posts intact and undamaged?
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Re: Opinions on this bridge repair?

Post by theg721 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:37 am

pscates wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:12 am
You didn't ask him to do that, to lock the bridge in, I take it? He's changing the way it works, which I wouldn't dig to start with.
No, I'd just dropped it off and said pretty much everything I said in my first paragraph here, and only found out his solution upon picking the guitar up. Me either; I guess it can't be a terrible idea since Mastery bridges work like that too as you mentioned, but Mastery bridges don't not tilt because of sellotape either, and have a great deal more thought behind them.
pscates wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:12 am
I just don't know if paper, tape, etc. are the way to go in a fight against gravity/downward pressure.
The paper thing was absolutely just a temporary fix and was never anything more than that. To be honest I'm surprised that the friction with the tape is holding it up at all, so I've absolutely no idea what to expect from this fix in the long run (if I leave it as is).
pscates wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:12 am
But if the entire thimble itself is sinking into the body(?), is that more of a soft wood issue where, no matter what, the thimble will continue sinking into the body as time goes on? Does that get into a plugging/redrilling scenario? I don't know. Re-reading your original post, that seems to be the case. That might require doing something to fix/address that issue (the true culprit) so you don't have to do all the little tricks/workarounds (that probably aren't going to last anyway).
This was my thought process exactly going into it, which is why I wanted to take it someplace rather than botch it myself. The body is definitely made from some kind of cheap softwood for sure.
pscates wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:12 am
Is this (the "??" drawing) what's happening? Is the wood a softer variety and/or the thimble hole maybe drilled a bit too large (effect exaggerated below). That lip should be sitting proud of the guitar body, correct? I've seen them flush/countersunk on some guitars, but is it all below the surface (and proceeding further over time)? If so, does that call for a plug/re-drill scenario?
Yeah, the whole thing is well below the surface.
Larry Mal wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:50 am
Putting some kind of shim in the holes so the thimbles sit where they should is the fix. This is just a kludge that won’t last.
I'll give that a go, cheers.
tammyw wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:06 am
If your thimbles have sunk that far, then they must be close to breaking through the back of the body. :o
Actually, it's a really thick body. It's visibly thicker than my Jazzmaster, and I think Jazzmasters are supposed are supposed to be thicker than Mustangs normally (and despite that it's the lightest guitar I own, which I guess is the one good thing about these cheap soft woods).
tammyw wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:06 am
I can't imagine something like that happening other than the holes being drilled the wrong size, and the fix should be to fill them with some good wood and re-drill correctly.
It'd be far from the first thing that's been botched on this guitar (having been able to fix everything else that's cropped up thus far by myself) if they were drilled the wrong size, but they can't have been far off either, the thimbles are pretty snug in there. That's exactly what I thought the fix would be, which again is why I wanted to take it someplace rather than botch it myself; I'm no woodworker at all.
tammyw wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:06 am
Is there anything else funny going on with the bridge? Are the bridge post height screws already fully extended? They need to still be engaged in the metal part of the posts. Are the plastic ends on the posts intact and undamaged?
Nothing else funny that I've noticed. Well, there's the sitar quality to the G string I mentioned but I think that's irrelevant to this. The post height screws were fully extended but still engaged when I was stuffing paper in the thimbles, I've not had the strings off yet since getting it back to see if that's the case now. Either way the thimbles are too deep for it to matter much how much you extend those screws unless you're putting something in the thimbles.

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Re: Opinions on this bridge repair?

Post by pscates » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:41 am

Hmmm...interesting. I've never known of a thimbles themselves to Titanic like that.

Well, I got to draw something, so I'm happy. :)

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Re: Opinions on this bridge repair?

Post by jorri » Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:57 am

How do thimbles get like that though?Sounds like you need to work out why.
Was there a bridge conversion with the wrong size, or is the guitar made of Balsa?
They sound like overly deep holes too because i doubt theyd go that far against the bottom of a hole.

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Re: Opinions on this bridge repair?

Post by theg721 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:41 pm

pscates wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:41 am
Hmmm...interesting. I've never known of a thimbles themselves to Titanic like that.

Well, I got to draw something, so I'm happy. :)
Yeah me either, I couldn't even find anyone else with the same issue when I Googled it initially.

The thing is, I got the body & neck super cheap from this guy locally because as it turned out when I assembled the whole thing, he'd botched just about everything he touched on them. There's two of half of the pickguard screw holes for instance, and the strap button screw holes were stripped completely, and so on. It's not all that surprising that there's something else completely wrong.
jorri wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:57 am
How do thimbles get like that though?Sounds like you need to work out why.
Was there a bridge conversion with the wrong size, or is the guitar made of Balsa?
They sound like overly deep holes too because i doubt theyd go that far against the bottom of a hole.
It's definitely a soft wood of some kind, but I'm not knowledgeable enough at all to say which exactly. I think it's probably down to both it being built with a soft wood as well as being drilled incorrectly.

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Re: Opinions on this bridge repair?

Post by Sonichris » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:21 pm

The bridge has the adjustable height screws in the posts still, right? they are like 3/8" long, and should be more than long enough to get the bridge up where you need it.

Here's a good view of the height screws and how they work.
https://staytrem.com/epages/950002362.s ... tent_page6

This reminds me of the Kurt Cobain story where he said the Mustang bridge was a pain in the ass to adjust because you had to take it off to get to the screws - never realized there are holes for an allen wrench.

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Re: Opinions on this bridge repair?

Post by theg721 » Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:08 pm

Sonichris wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:21 pm
The bridge has the adjustable height screws in the posts still, right? they are like 3/8" long, and should be more than long enough to get the bridge up where you need it.
Nope, the thimbles are genuinely that deep into the body that the height screws aren't long enough.

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Re: Opinions on this bridge repair?

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:18 pm

I mean, would getting another Mustang body not be a fine solution at this point? The Mexican made Fender bodies are not going to be expensive and will still be of high quality.
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Re: Opinions on this bridge repair?

Post by Sonichris » Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:40 pm

theg721 wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:08 pm
Sonichris wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:21 pm
The bridge has the adjustable height screws in the posts still, right? they are like 3/8" long, and should be more than long enough to get the bridge up where you need it.
Nope, the thimbles are genuinely that deep into the body that the height screws aren't long enough.
We need pictures - you're telling me that the thimbles being sunk into the body about a 1/16" has made it totally un adjustable? There's more problems than just sunken thimbles.

If thats the case, fill the original holes, and re-drill. or pull the thimbles and shove some stuff in the holes until the thimbles sit flush.

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Re: Opinions on this bridge repair?

Post by timtam » Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:42 pm

theg721 wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:03 am
....the bridge thimbles have sunk into the body by about 1 or 2 cm, which meant that the bridge sat too low in them for the strings to not just be flat along the fretboard.
Do you mean mm not cm ? Assuming you do, and that the thimble holes have just been drilled too deep, I would probably be looking for small metal disk(s) placed in the bottom of the holes, with the right thickness to restore the thimble to its proper depth. Unless the thimble hole diameters are really too wide .... in which case drilling out, dowelling, and re-drilling the thimble holes would be the preferred solution.

Any tech who suggests wrapping the bridge posts is basically advertising that he doesn't understand how the rocking bridge works. Or that he just wanted a quick and easy fix rather than addressing the thimble depth problem, as above.
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