I was told my tone was too thin...

[fleezinator]

I recently finished up a partscaster JM build inspired by a TVL. It was a takeover project that came with Novak JM-V pickups. My first & continued impression is the bridge is weak and thin. In contrast the neck seems to have more bottom end presence that adds to the imbalance between the two pickups. I’ve raised the bridge as high and lowered the neck as much as possible to balance as much as possible. I figured I try to make it work.

I played it out for the first time at church and our sound guy said it needed more balls (imagine that!). He mentioned it being too thin sounding. In between services I grabbed my squier J mascis jazzmaster and with its P-90 ish growl, FOH noted a drastic improvement in tone. In all honesty I have a hard time discerning tone when I’m playing. I couldn’t much analyze it in the mix and have no recording for context so I’m going largely by our really experienced sound guy. 
I ran both guitars thru the same helix patch so really the biggest variable was the pickups. 


I wanted to give the JM-Vs a shot but am now reconsidering a bunch of variables to get my JM to sound thicker/meatier. I’m not much of a vintage guy so I’m open to any and all options. 


Here’s all the variables I could think of in increasing cost order:

Tone knob- I do roll this off to take some of the ice pickiness out but this really doesn’t do much to thicken up the overall tone. 


Helix settings- I’m running the Princeton amp model with an IR. I’ve got prince of tone feeding the front. I suspect there’s a lot that can be done here to sound shape and compensate for a thin signal, so maybe I’m looking for some general advice here on how to achieve that. 


Swap 1Meg pots for 250k 


Pickups: I’m hesitant to go with a p-90 since I kinda have that sound covered with the JMJM so I’m thinking a Novak JM HC stealth or a wide-range (admittedly I'm not sure what that sounds like). I’m not too sure on the options. I found the 60 cycle hum to be pretty distracting (tho I shielded with copper tape) so maybe a noiseless option?

I really like the way the Jazzmaster plays, feels & looks. If these Novaks are pretty true to the vintage sound however, I don't think I'm much of a fan (for my use anyways). What would you suggest?

[Embenny]

There's no accounting for taste. One person's thin tone is another person's clear tone. Same for thick vs muddy.

Vintage Jazzmaster pickups are intentionally the same winding for bridge and neck, which maximizes tonal differences between them. If you want something thicker, feel free to put something thicker in the bridge. P90s, overwound JM pickups, goldfoils, humbuckers...they literally all fit in there, and many are even sold in a JM-bobbin format so that they look pretty much the same, too.

[Larry Mal]

Having a more heavily wound bridge pickup is a pretty common thing with Jazzmaster pickup makers these days. So maybe look into that.

That being said, if you have a neck pickup sound that everyone agrees is reminiscent of testes, then why not just play that?

I usually skip opinions that reference testicles myself.

[parry]

On swapping pots...

is that what switching from 1 meg pots, to 250k would do though? Thicken up the tone?
I've always understood it to be the opposite. That 1 meg pots was like drinking from "Teh TOANZ" firehose and 250s were like a trickle used to reign in hotter pups like humbuckers, etc...

[marqueemoon]

I’m recording right now. Spending a surprising amount of time on the neck pickup and rhythm circuit.

[adamrobertt]

On swapping pots...

is that what switching from 1 meg pots, to 250k would do though? Thicken up the tone?
I've always understood it to be the opposite. That 1 meg pots was like drinking from "Teh TOANZ" firehose and 250s were like a trickle used to reign in hotter pups like humbuckers, etc...

I mean, no. Typically humbuckers come with 500k pots, and the standard for single coils is usually 250k. Typically humbuckers use a higher value specifically because they tend to be on the dark side, and the higher resistance pots brighten them up a little bit. The opposite is true of single coils - lower value pots tame the ample high end they usually produce.

The higher the resistance, the more high frequencies you get. The lower the value, the less high frequencies you get. Basically, the higher the resistance of the pot, the less of a load the pickup sees, and less treble bleeds to ground.

It's kind of unusual to see 1 meg pots in guitar circuits - pretty much the only ones that use them are Fender offsets and the wide range equipped guitars from the 70s.

[alexpigment]

It's kind of unusual to see 1 meg pots in guitar circuits - pretty much the only ones that use them are Fender offsets and the wide range equipped guitars from the 70s.

[TANGENT WARNING] Actually, Fender switched the tone pots on regular Telecasters to 1meg around 1968/69 and didn't switch them back to 250k until 1981. I can't imagine I'd last long with a stock 70s tele

To the OP, it might be worth researching a more overwound bridge pickup. I'm a fan of making the bridge at least 1-2k hotter than the neck, assuming the same general construction between the two.

[adamrobertt]

It's kind of unusual to see 1 meg pots in guitar circuits - pretty much the only ones that use them are Fender offsets and the wide range equipped guitars from the 70s.

[TANGENT WARNING] Actually, Fender switched the tone pots on regular Telecasters to 1meg around 1968/69 and didn't switch them back to 250k until 1981. I can't imagine I'd last long with a stock 70s tele

Yeah, oof. Just the knowledge is hurting my ears.

[fleezinator]

On swapping pots...

is that what switching from 1 meg pots, to 250k would do though? Thicken up the tone?
I've always understood it to be the opposite. That 1 meg pots was like drinking from "Teh TOANZ" firehose and 250s were like a trickle used to reign in hotter pups like humbuckers, etc...

The higher the resistance, the more high frequencies you get. The lower the value, the less high frequencies you get.

This is my understanding of it tho I'm not sure how much different introducing 250k pots in this case would be different than dialing in a 1 meg pot down to 2 or 3. I'm guessing either case is they both act as a low pass filter and don't really do much to 'thicken' sound as it's subtractive.

To the OP, it might be worth researching a more overwound bridge pickup. I'm a fan of making the bridge at least 1-2k hotter than the neck, assuming the same general construction between the two.

I've read that the JM-Fat is a popular bridge to pair with the JM-V neck to get more balance. I'll have to seek out sound demos.

Thanks for the input thus far. I think I'll need to spend more time sculpting some frequencies in the Helix specifically for this guitar as is. I know not one size fits all when it comes to pairing an axe with an amp/amp model and I haven't really exhausted any of the options immediately available to me in the box. Funny thing is even if I get this dialed in in isolation, I know the sound guy is ultimately gonna manipulate the signal to fit the mix anyways.

How do you all go about shaping your tone? Is it different for a live context vs recording? Seeing as the Helix's sound is modeled to emulate a recorded sound as if you're in the studio vs sitting in front of an amp, that changes things too. Since I can't replicate the signal coming off the PA at church, would I be better off monitoring thru headphones, my studio monitors or an amp as reference?

[MechaBulletBill]

It's kind of unusual to see 1 meg pots in guitar circuits - pretty much the only ones that use them are Fender offsets and the wide range equipped guitars from the 70s.

[TANGENT WARNING] Actually, Fender switched the tone pots on regular Telecasters to 1meg around 1968/69 and didn't switch them back to 250k until 1981. I can't imagine I'd last long with a stock 70s tele

they're not as bad as you'd think

[UlricvonCatalyst]

Fender switched the tone pots on regular Telecasters to 1meg around 1968/69 and didn't switch them back to 250k until 1981. I can't imagine I'd last long with a stock 70s tele

Tangentially again, I bought a Thinline Tele a while back and the seller warned me I would "have to roll back the tone pot a fair bit" as it had 1 meg pots. Personally, I love it wide open, especially on the bridge pickup.

[HNB]

You could always use an eq pedal to tweak your sound a bit. Lots of people use them professionally. I would also go with what sounds good to you though.

Nothing wrong with swapping out a bridge pickup for one you like better. My favorite Jazzmaster pickups are antiquity II's. They are "darker" and more "mid" forward according to some, but I find the bridge pickup to be way more usable than other pickup sets I have used. Previously to trying those out, I would either only use the neck pickup or the middle position. (Never the bridge alone.)

Also nothing wrong with using your tone knob to take a little high end off. Plenty of people do that also.

[marqueemoon]

If you’re running direct via a Helix and playing primarily in the same building over the same sound system why not just bring a long cable next time so you can hear what the audience hears for yourself and tweak a preset for this guitar accordingly?

[øøøøøøø]

Changing the max resistance of the pot moves the resonant frequency of the system. It’s not quite as simple as “less treble bleeds off to ground,” (but if that’s a useful shorthand to you, it’s probably not going to hurt anyone!)

But for a more-precise view of what’s going on:

Guitar pickups are highly inductive, they have a fair amount of capacitance, guitar cables are capacitive and have resistance (and most guitars have a capacitor-based low-pass filter added on besides).

An RLC (resistor-inductor-capacitor) system like this will have a resonant peak—a band of frequencies that are larger in amplitude than others.

The height, width (“Q”) and location of this resonant hump is determined by the relationships between the pickup’s inductance, the pickup coil’s inherent capacitance, the cable’s capacitance, the cable’s resistance, and the volume pot’s resistance (to say nothing of the tone control, which complicates things further).

Going from 500k to 1M on a volume pot (which places this resistance in parallel with the pickup) will shift this resonant bump higher in frequency—actually changing the location of a sort of “treble boost,” moving it higher.

It’s not as though there’s some gentle rolloff that’s being shifted to reveal more inherent top end. There’s an actual resonant peak that’s being tuned.

[fleezinator]

Changing the max resistance of the pot moves the resonant frequency of the system. It’s not quite as simple as “less treble bleeds off to ground,” (but if that’s a useful shorthand to you, it’s probably not going to hurt anyone!)

I'm gonna potentially show off my ignorance here in the hopes that I'm picking up what you're putting down. Is this generally what you're saying?