Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

[jondom22]

Looks like now that you have reduced the string break angle over the bridge (by reduced neck shim and the higher Descendant setup) that you've got string downforce on the saddles - and thus string-saddle friction - low enough that your Mastery is now stable with trem use. Because the strings are sliding easily over the saddles. So you may be able to stick with the (higher tension) 12-52 strings if that's what you prefer. 11-49's would reduce string-saddle friction further, but the change would perhaps now be more in terms of lighter feel than obviously better bridge performance. As typical examples, D'Adddario EJ21's (12-52) have total tension of 149 lbf (67 kgf) at 25.5" scale and standard tuning ... versus EXL115's (11-49) with 117 lbf (53 kgf).

Yup, pretty much resolved now. Really can't thank everyone who chimed in here enough to help me out!!!! I really had no idea the mastery required less string tension, so I was literally doing the thing that made it work worse haha.

[alexpigment]

I actually had just bought a new neck from musikraft but it they made the wrong scale-length arghhhh. So I gotta keep using this neck for now, not sure if it's worth me paying to deal with frets if I'm not gonna keep it cos I prefer a 9.5" radius anyways.

Yeah I had a feeling it was a 12" radius, but figured I'd ask just in case there was a hidden gem neck to keep on my radar. Good luck on the search for the next neck!

[jondom22]

Update:
Descendant Vibrato feeling good/stable with no metal shim in Vibrato and only 0.25 degree neck shim. No bridge movment with vibrato use.

Got a Mastery Vibrato as I was still hoping to do more up-pitching and for ease of stringing.

My findings:
- With bridge/saddles and neck shim (0.25 degree) as it was with the Descendant, I installed the Mastery Vibrato.
- - - Less string tension, causing more plicky type sound when picking. Also getting weird 12-string-esque effect on high E string now.
- - - Comparing the string holes on both vibratos, it seems that with the Descendant even without any shims sits lower than the mastery, and thus provides more break angle behind the bridge.
- - - Enjoyed the upward vibrato shift, and seems to have more range in downward shift too.
- - - Dig the more wobbly sound you get for vibrato push/pull in both directions.

- Swapped 0.25 degree neck shim for 0.5 degree:
- - - Still sounding plinky sounding even with higher action. Made sure bridge posts were the same height (approx 7/64"). Tried just raising saddle height. Starting to get a little movement on bridge with vibrato use.

- Swapped 0.5 degree neck shim for 1 degree:
- - - Found a pretty decent round tone that wasn't plinky (maybe a touch still).
- - - Had to get bridge posts up more to compensate.
- - - Getting some rocking movement in bridge again with vibrato usage, not too crazy but I can see the whole bridge slightly moving and the saddles as well.

My main takeaway is that the Mastery Vibrato inherently provides for less break angle behind the bridge than the Descendant (even after removing the metal shims from it). This forced me to compensate by adding additional neck shim to get enough string tension to prevent a plinky-type tone and get good resonance and sustain from the bridge.

Before installing the Descendant last year, my thought was that by providing more break angle behind the bridge, I would have a more balanced force of tensions on the saddles. However in reading many posts here, it seems like many have found break angle behind the bridge to be unecessary, and that you can simply use neck shims to achieve further string tension. Yet, I've so far found the Descendant to be a bit more stable as the behind-the-bridge angle enables one to remove/lessen the amount of neck shim, and thus put the bridge closer to the body, which seems to help prevent bridge movement with vibrato usage. Makes me think that while generally folks have moved away from using buzzstops, there was a certain efficacy on placing more angle behind the bridge rather than using only neck shims/raising the bridge height.

Overall, the Mastery Vibrato is heavier and thicker, has more pitch movement with usage, and I LOVE being able to pitch upwards, as well as really finding the wiggling between up and down very cool and somewhat different than just wiggling downwards. I also like that stringing up the mastery vibrato is easier.

Gonna give it some time to see how things settle in before making a decision on which one to use. I also would like to try some 11-48 gauge strings again and see how it feels, or if that will remove too much tension on the bridge and cause it too sound too plinky.

I also feel like I might have some other slight underlying issues with the guitar, namely:
- Possible slight twist in neck or slightly off neck pocket on treble side? Feels like I have to raise the height of bridge post or saddles on my treble side higher than the bass side.
- Bridge post holes might be like 1-3 mm too far from nut, as I'm finding that my saddles need to be about 3/4 of the way towards the front of the bridge.
- Nut def needs some work.


Anyways, figured I'd update and solicit any ideas/thoughts/advice, as well as leave up for future lurkers dealing with similar issues.

[jondom22]

Update:

- I was finding the Mastery Vibrato to require a substantial neck shim (at least 1 degree) in order for me to get enough string tension. With the higher shim, the bridge posts needed to be raised which caused there to be more play when using the vibrato. I also felt like the tone I was getting was a bit pingy for lack of a better word.

- I swapped back on the Descendant Vibrato (with no metal shims on the vibrato), and only the 0.25 degree neck pocket shim, and it seemed to be more stable again and I felt the tone was better without weird pings. However, after playing with it for a few days, I felt like my overall tone had gotten thinner and a bit more plinky. Prior to experimenting with shims and vibratos, I had a single metal shim in the Descendant Vibrato (it comes with 2, you can use both, 1 or none), and I believe a 0.5 degree neck pocket shim.

- Today I felt like I needed more string tension to get the resonance and warm tone I like, with the plinky sound (I pick and play hard with 1mm picks fwiw).

- Swapped back in the 0.5 degree neck shim, and it felt a little better. As I thought about it, I realized I never tried both Descendant metal shims (for more break angle behind the bridge), while lessening the neck pocket shims simultaneously.

- Removed the 0.5 degree neck shim and replaced it with the 0.25 degree neck shim. Added BOTH metal plate shims to the Descendant Vibrato. HERE WE GO! I'm getting a lot of resonance and sustain and a warmer sound without the plinkiness due to the higher string tension, but I can keep my bridge posts and saddles fairly low (like 1/16" - 3/32" between the bridge plate to pickgaurd). This is keeping the bridge and saddles pretty stable with vibrato use, while giving me the tone I want.

Really the only thing for me to try is a floating bridge like the Staytrem (or maybe Swope Descendant new bridge that be used in fixed or floating position). I'd be curious how the floating bridges affect tone and stability compared to the mastery, and how it affects vibrato use.

[Veitchy]

Really the only thing for me to try is a floating bridge like the Staytrem (or maybe Swope Descendant new bridge that be used in fixed or floating position). I'd be curious how the floating bridges affect tone and stability compared to the mastery, and how it affects vibrato use.

Whilst its hard to say for sure as variances in setup can alter things drastically, there's something of a consensus on what you can expect.

A Stayrem sounds similar, though a little darker than a floating bridge. Nothing some amp or eq tweaking wouldn't compensate for, "won't hear it in a live mix", etc.

When comparing a Mastery to a floating bridge, the Mastery has a somewhat more direct sound, with a bit more emphasis on the fundamental of the note, whereas the floating bridge has more transients. A P-bass vs a J-bass isn't a terrible comparison IMO.

Some report the Mastery to be twangier (though I can get a pretty decent twang out of my JM with a Mustang bridge), and the strings behind the bridge often ring out louder.

There is a difference in sound - whether you like it independent of setup difference is up to you.