Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

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Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

Post by jondom22 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:27 am

Is this the normal behavior for the Mastery Bridge when using vibrato? - https://youtu.be/01bhlfFyxM4

It seems like the saddles actually rock back and forth, and the strings remain in place on the saddles. My understanding was that the strings are supposed to glide through the saddles?

Update 10/15/21:
Here's an updated video of the bridge movement with vibrato after I made some adjustments - https://youtu.be/UyRY-dkQVKE

Piece of tape on string so you can see string movement

- Lowered string tension by removing large neck pocket shim and replacing with 0.25 degree shim
- Took out shim plate in Descendant vibrato to lessen string tension behind the bridge.

Currently using 12-52 strings, but may go for 11-49 to further reduce tension and make playing easier. Need to file nut a bit more, and add lubrication to nut/saddle contacts.
Last edited by jondom22 on Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

Post by marqueemoon » Thu Oct 14, 2021 11:54 am

jondom22 wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:27 am
Is this the normal behavior for the Mastery Bridge when using vibrato? - https://youtu.be/01bhlfFyxM4

It seems like the saddles actually rock back and forth, and the strings remain in place on the saddles. My understanding was that the strings are supposed to glide through the saddles?
That is definitely odd.

What happen if you raise the bridge up with the posts and drop the saddles down?

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Re: Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

Post by JSett » Thu Oct 14, 2021 12:39 pm

It looks like the tension of the strings has pulled back a bit on the saddles compressing the springs a touch. If you push the screws forwards so they're making proper contact with the rear plate that might stop that from rocking
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Re: Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

Post by Larry Mal » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:00 pm

You know, I checked, and I do get a little bit of motion there, especially if I pull the pitch up.

It's nowhere near what yours is, though.

My advice has already been said, drop the saddles and raise the bridge itself. Your saddles are a lot higher than mine are (my guitars are also shimmed).
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Re: Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

Post by jondom22 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:35 pm

Thx for the responses everyone. I spent some time experimenting and reading up on some other threads with people who had similar issues. It seems like the main issue is that the fixed mastery bridge can only take so much string tension before it starts to move a bit with vibrato usage.

I also saw on a reddit thread that the Mastery folks had told one customer to actually raise the saddles higher (as opposed to the bridge posts) - https://www.reddit.com/r/offset/comment ... using_the/

So I did a few things....

1) Raised the saddle screws (those 4 screws) pretty much as high as I could, and then lower the bridge posts. This seemed to help, and also angled the saddles back more. TBH, I prob went a bit too far and will likely raise the bridge a bit, and lower the saddles a bit.

2) Took out the additional metal shim in the Descendant Vibrato (it comes with 2, I first started with both, then took out 1, now took out the second). This lowered string tension.

3) Added some string lube to the saddles and nut (tbh, the neck is a mim strat neck, the nut def needs to be cut wider for the bigger strings).

Those adjustments definitely made less rocking movement on the mastery saddles/bridge when using vibrato.

The remaining Q is whether or not the nut slots possibly binding up the strings are inhibiting string movement over the saddles/nut causing part of the problem (I suspect yes to a degree).

My other suspicion with the mastery is that there's a limit to the string tension you can apply if you want to use vibrato with the guitar. I can poss take out some of the neck shim, and get the saddles down further before going with a lighter gauge string.

So, unless I understood the saddle heigh screws recommendation wrong, my next process of elimination are filing the nut, removing more shim/lowering bridge and/or saddles further, lowering string gauge.

At any rate, it's def better than it was earlier today.
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Re: Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

Post by timtam » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:49 pm

All fixed bridges - like Mastery and TOMs/AOMs - require low string-saddle friction for trem use. Otherwise when the strings move with trem use, too-high friction will cause the strings to drag the saddles with them. You want the strings to slide easily over the saddles. Moving saddles (or the whole bridge) on a fixed bridge is a sign that string-saddle friction is too high.

The things that cause high string-saddle friction are high string downforce on the saddles ... a function of string tension (ie string gauge only) and string break angle over the bridge (a function of bridge height - so too much shim - and/or ill-advised use of buzzstops or too-low Descendant setup or low cigar on a Mustang). From a design point of view, too-low string-saddle contact area creates higher friction (why non-roller TOMs are bad with offset trems); as does placing the trem closer to the bridge. Mastery uses special saddle metal treatment to keep friction low (although there are reports of it wearing). The string-saddle points can also be lubed to reduce friction.

So string-saddle friction can be reduced by addressing some or all of the above issues. If you reduce friction by enough with just one change, then you can get by without having to do the others. For example, you might get away with just going to a lighter string gauge, instead of reducing an existing shim. Or vice-versa.

Note that all of the above is pretty much the opposite of setup principles for rocking bridges, which require high string-saddle friction.
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Re: Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

Post by jondom22 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:46 am

timtam wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:49 pm
All fixed bridges - like Mastery and TOMs/AOMs - require low string-saddle friction for trem use. Otherwise when the strings move with trem use, too-high friction will cause the strings to drag the saddles with them. You want the strings to slide easily over the saddles. Moving saddles (or the whole bridge) on a fixed bridge is a sign that string-saddle friction is too high.

The things that cause high string-saddle friction are high string downforce on the saddles ... a function of string tension (ie string gauge only) and string break angle over the bridge (a function of bridge height - so too much shim - and/or ill-advised use of buzzstops or too-low Descendant setup or low cigar on a Mustang). From a design point of view, too-low string-saddle contact area creates higher friction (why non-roller TOMs are bad with offset trems); as does placing the trem closer to the bridge. Mastery uses special saddle metal treatment to keep friction low (although there are reports of it wearing). The string-saddle points can also be lubed to reduce friction.

So string-saddle friction can be reduced by addressing some or all of the above issues. If you reduce friction by enough with just one change, then you can get by without having to do the others. For example, you might get away with just going to a lighter string gauge, instead of reducing an existing shim. Or vice-versa.

Note that all of the above is pretty much the opposite of setup principles for rocking bridges, which require high string-saddle friction.
This was super insightful and helpful! I've been cranking up the Mastery bridge tension over the years (extra shims + bridge height, higher gauge strings, descendant vibrato) thinking this was the solution to tuning stability, tone, and keeping frets from fretting out.

I spent a good chunk of time yesterday doing the following:

- Removed Descendant Vibrato's metal shim (so it's oriented about the same as a standard vibrato where the ball-ends engage the strings).
- Removed Stew Mac 0.5 degree neck shim, plus two little additional strips of wood in the neck pocket that were acting as additional shims, and replace with a single 0.25 degree stew mac neck shim.

Doing this, I got the bridge much closer to the body (basically a couple mm between the bridge plate and the pickguard) and the saddle screws set now around medium to low height).

Playing this with my 12-52 set of strings, I'm able to get smoother vibrato arm movement without the bridge rocking back and forth (well maybe there's a very very very tiny bit of movement).

I still need to properly lubricate the saddles and nut contact points before determining if the string gauge is appropriate for a mastery bridge with vibrato usage, or if I need to go back down to 11-48 or 11-49 sets I had been using forever on my JM and 335 (my 2 guitars) until going up to 12-52s earlier this year when experimenting with a 24.75" conversion neck (I have a standard 25.5" scale neck back on it now).


Interesting point though that with the Mastery bridge, you actually will require less string tension, esp if you wanna use vibrato, but with a standard rocking bridge or staytrem you'll need to jack up the tension to keep things stable. I've been curious about trying a staytrem for a while, never changed out the bridge cos the JM parts guitar was a craigslist score a decade ago that came with the mastery bridge.
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Re: Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

Post by schoolie » Fri Oct 15, 2021 8:02 am

It's been my experience that the Mastery bridge sounds and performs better with the bridge height set as low as possible, almost on the pickguard. I've also had problems with the saddle screws set high, so I adjust the saddles as low as possible and adjust the bridge height with the posts.
That's just what works for me.

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Re: Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

Post by jondom22 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:33 am

Here's an updated video of the bridge movement with vibrato after I made some adjustments - https://youtu.be/UyRY-dkQVKE

Piece of tape on string so you can see string movement

- Lowered string tension by removing large neck pocket shim and replacing with 0.25 degree shim
- Took out shim plate in Descendant vibrato to lessen string tension behind the bridge.

Currently using 12-52 strings, but may go for 11-49 to further reduce tension and make playing easier. Need to file nut a bit more, and add lubrication to nut/saddle contacts.
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Re: Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

Post by jondom22 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:18 pm

A lil wankin off with the bridge setup - https://youtu.be/I_vy5oLdYGo - https://youtu.be/BcFJr7sEAWg
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Re: Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

Post by alexpigment » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:42 pm

What's the neck on that guitar? It looks like a nice 21 fret strat neck with rosewood and a truss rod adjustment at the headstock. If it's a 9.5" radius, I might be interested in trying to find one for a project build.

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Re: Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

Post by andy_tchp » Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:47 pm

jondom22 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:46 am
I still need to properly lubricate the saddles and nut contact points before determining if the string gauge is appropriate for a mastery bridge with vibrato usage, or if I need to go back down to 11-48 or 11-49 sets I had been using forever on my JM and 335 (my 2 guitars) until going up to 12-52s earlier this year when experimenting with a 24.75" conversion neck (I have a standard 25.5" scale neck back on it now).
Back when I used Mastery Bridges on my Jazzmasters I ran .012"-.054" string sets with a wound 'G', and never had the issue you've outlined/experienced.
jondom22 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:33 am
Here's an updated video of the bridge movement with vibrato after I made some adjustments - https://youtu.be/UyRY-dkQVKE
Looks 100% completely normal to me.
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Re: Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

Post by timtam » Fri Oct 15, 2021 7:56 pm

Looks like now that you have reduced the string break angle over the bridge (by reduced neck shim and the higher Descendant setup) that you've got string downforce on the saddles - and thus string-saddle friction - low enough that your Mastery is now stable with trem use. Because the strings are sliding easily over the saddles. So you may be able to stick with the (higher tension) 12-52 strings if that's what you prefer. 11-49's would reduce string-saddle friction further, but the change would perhaps now be more in terms of lighter feel than obviously better bridge performance. As typical examples, D'Adddario EJ21's (12-52) have total tension of 149 lbf (67 kgf) at 25.5" scale and standard tuning ... versus EXL115's (11-49) with 117 lbf (53 kgf).
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Re: Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

Post by jondom22 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:09 pm

alexpigment wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:42 pm
What's the neck on that guitar? It looks like a nice 21 fret strat neck with rosewood and a truss rod adjustment at the headstock. If it's a 9.5" radius, I might be interested in trying to find one for a project build.
It's a deluxe series mexican strat neck i got off craigslist years ago. rosewood finger board, kluson style tuners, synthetic nut, medium-jumbo frets, modern c shape, rosewood board on maple neck, 12" radius I think. Frets are worn to shit, so I either have to see if they can be dressed/crowned or if it needs to be refretted.

I actually had just bought a new neck from musikraft but it they made the wrong scale-length arghhhh. So I gotta keep using this neck for now, not sure if it's worth me paying to deal with frets if I'm not gonna keep it cos I prefer a 9.5" radius anyways.
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Re: Mastery Bridge - Saddle Movement when using Vibrato

Post by jondom22 » Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:11 pm

andy_tchp wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:47 pm
jondom22 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 6:46 am
I still need to properly lubricate the saddles and nut contact points before determining if the string gauge is appropriate for a mastery bridge with vibrato usage, or if I need to go back down to 11-48 or 11-49 sets I had been using forever on my JM and 335 (my 2 guitars) until going up to 12-52s earlier this year when experimenting with a 24.75" conversion neck (I have a standard 25.5" scale neck back on it now).
Back when I used Mastery Bridges on my Jazzmasters I ran .012"-.054" string sets with a wound 'G', and never had the issue you've outlined/experienced.
jondom22 wrote:
Fri Oct 15, 2021 11:33 am
Here's an updated video of the bridge movement with vibrato after I made some adjustments - https://youtu.be/UyRY-dkQVKE
Looks 100% completely normal to me.
Yup after getting the bridge super low it fixed the bridge movement issue. Still need to address nut with some filing and put some chapstick on the contact points of the strings before deciding if I will remove the 0.25 degree neck shim, or go back to 11-49 gauge strings (which would obv be easier to play).
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