Vintage Jaguar Bridge Saddle "flipping" ?

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mars
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Vintage Jaguar Bridge Saddle "flipping" ?

Post by mars » Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:05 pm

Hi OSG,

I have a new-to-me 1966 Jaguar I'm getting acquainted with and could use advice on an unfamiliar bridge issue. Oddly enough I couldn't find any info about it online, hence this post.

Issue

With enthusiastic playing 8) the low e saddle on this vintage/og bridge occasionally "flips", like so:

Image

As you can imagine, this screws up tuning more drastically than the common string slipping people complain about. Not good while on stage (or ever)!

Details

- Strings are 11-50 gauge
- I've raised the bridge height to add tension, which remedied typical string slipping
- I've adjusted the grub screws to angle the saddle slightly outboard
- Saddle was "flipping" both before and after the adjustments above. Less frequently now, but I have a strong preference for never.

Any obvious fixes I should dig into? I'd rather keep the original bridge than swap for an alternative. Again, I've never seen this before and I've happily owned Jaguars, Jazzmasters, and Mustangs with their stock bridges in the past. My caveman playing technique (or lack thereof) has not changed much over the years, either. Help!

MARS
SF CA

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alexpigment
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Re: Vintage Jaguar Bridge Saddle "flipping" ?

Post by alexpigment » Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:03 pm

Make the saddle height screw nearest to the other saddles taller than the one on the outside.

EDIT: I re-read and saw that you already tried this. Have you tried swapping the grub screws? I wonder if it's possible that one is rounded off on the bottom at the other is not.

DOUBLE EDIT: Rather than swapping the grub screws around, maybe rotate the whole saddle 180 degrees. Perhaps the chiseling on the side of the saddle is not mating well with the A string saddle. The other side might be flatter or simply just a better fit.

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Re: Vintage Jaguar Bridge Saddle "flipping" ?

Post by timtam » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:20 pm

If the string-saddle downforce is sufficiently high (a result of string tension and break angle), and the string is sufficiently far from the longitudinal rotational axis of the saddle (nominally the intonation screw), then there can be enough torque to unbalance the saddle and flip it.

You have already tried some of the possible mitigations, eg having the inboard grub screw higher than the outboard one.

Is the flip occurring with the string still in its starting groove, or when it shifts to an adjacent groove, further from the centre of the saddle (increasing the"flipping" torque) ? Cleaning out the usual groove so the string sits more securely in it may help. You may or may not have scope to file it a bit deeper, depending on whether the string will still clear the end of the intonation screw (that clearance is somewhat of a product of how much of your action is due to saddle height and how much to bridge height; higher saddle height tilts the intonation screw end upwards into the path of the string).

Getting the desired action on a vintage-style bridge is a dance between bridge height and saddle height. As long as the strings are clearing the front and back edges of the bridge plate, you may have scope to try lowering the saddle a tad, while raising the bridge by the same amount. That may balance the saddle a little more securely.

A lower gauge E than the 50 would also help (lower string tension=> less torque acting to rotate the saddle, when the string is away from the saddle centre).

If the neck had a big shim it would help to reduce it a tad to reduce break angle and therefore downforce on the bridge (not usually desirable), but your bridge height doesn't look overly high so it probably doesn't have a big shim.

I take it the trem is original MIA ? If it were a MIJ trem, their narrower string spacing can play into problems like this.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Vintage Jaguar Bridge Saddle "flipping" ?

Post by jorri » Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:09 am

Is the intonation screw loose or is it flipping 'with' the saddle? Some loctite could work if it is.

Since you:ve tried tilting the saddle a shim might work...

Lowering saddles in relation to plate would lower centre of force so that its more stable.

Filing out the grooves into a proper tight slot for a low E is another way to increase stability too. It might cause contact with the screw or plate to the string which is bad though.

Failing that, sometimes i just 'glue' the saddle screw to the plate on bridges patience ran out on. Using loctite holds it enough, and so easy to remove. Make sure to align strings first as all the saddles might be moving side to side. I didnt notice anything negative, if anything tonal improvement from the stability, only if you use superglue instead of threadlock and find you cant adjust it.

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Re: Vintage Jaguar Bridge Saddle "flipping" ?

Post by ChrisDesign » Thu Oct 07, 2021 11:31 am

Some awesome advice above!

My advice, shim the neck. Shimming increased downward force and helps keep that saddle in place! You can also lower your action while maintaining a good break angle.

I believe Leo designed offsets to be shimmed…
"I own a '66 Jaguar. That's the guitar I polish, and baby - I refuse to let anyone touch it when I jump into the crowd." - Kurt Cobain

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Re: Vintage Jaguar Bridge Saddle "flipping" ?

Post by timtam » Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:38 pm

The shimming question really hinges around whether the saddle is flipping with the string in its original slot (which would mean that the E string is probably not in a central slot - so already unbalanced ?). Or slipping out of its original (centralized?) slot and moving inbound to the point where it then unbalances the saddle and it flips. If the former, then increasing downforce with a shim would probably encourage flipping, because it would increase the unbalancing torque. If the latter, then increasing downforce with a shim should help to keep the string in its original (centralized?) slot, and thus reducing flipping.

The idea of locking the intonation screw so it can't turn (and therefore can't flip) is an interesting one. You could put a nut on the screw to tighten it against the back wall of the plate (maybe with a nylon washer too). And then add loctite to the intonation screw within the saddle. That might be enough to stop it from rotating.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Vintage Jaguar Bridge Saddle "flipping" ?

Post by epizootics » Fri Oct 08, 2021 9:18 pm

I'll second the removal of the spring / addition of a nut to the two E saddles. I've done that to a couple of bridges where those saddles had too much lateral movement. Intonate the saddle then lock it into place with the nut. It is the least invasive bridge mod I can think of and it makes everything feel nice & solid.

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