Same scale length, same string gauge, but they feel different

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Cymbaline87
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Same scale length, same string gauge, but they feel different

Post by Cymbaline87 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:07 am

I've had short scale Fenders for quite some time now. I used to have a '64 jag but at the moment I have a '65 jag, a '68 red compstang and a '69 blue compstang. They are all 24" scale ones, not 22.5".

As we all know, lots of short scale players use heavier string gauges, but I never felt the need to do that because my guitars felt great with 0.10s. (I'm talking about both jags and the '68 red compstang). In fact, I tried 0.11s on the 64 jag and I didn't like it.

But since I got the '69 blue one, I've noticed .10s just feel too loose/light so yesterday I changed to 0.11s and voilá, it feels great.

What I don't understand is why this is happening. They are all same scale lenght, shouldn't they all feel the same with same string gauge?

Am I missing something?
Last edited by Cymbaline87 on Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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HarlowTheFish
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Re: Same scale length, same string gauge, but they feel different

Post by HarlowTheFish » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:50 am

As far as tension, yes, but differences in break angle can have pretty noticeable effects on the perceived stiffness of the strings and how easy they feel to bend. Generally, more break angle = more stiff, even at the same tension. Maybe that's got something to do with it?

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Re: Same scale length, same string gauge, but they feel different

Post by jorri » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:09 am

Well other factors are:

Truss rod/neck curvature
Neck angle/break angle
Nut height
Action

And probably a few more (frets? Neck shape? String brand?) but these variables would have to be exactly the same before expecting them to play the same.

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Re: Same scale length, same string gauge, but they feel different

Post by alexpigment » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:46 pm

jorri wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:09 am
Well other factors are:

Truss rod/neck curvature
Neck angle/break angle
Nut height
Action

And probably a few more (frets? Neck shape? String brand?) but these variables would have to be exactly the same before expecting them to play the same.
Agree with this completely. Offsets in general seem to be more prone to tension differences based on setup due to the bridge/trem interplay, whereas you can generally use the same strings on any Telecaster and they will feel roughly the same (truss rod is still a factor though). I've learned to just use whatever string guage feels right on my Jazzmasters if the setup otherwise feels good.

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Re: Same scale length, same string gauge, but they feel different

Post by Larry Mal » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:53 pm

It just happens sometimes.

I bought an American Standard Telecaster some years ago, liked it a lot, and then decided to treat myself to an AVRI Telecaster also. It was supposed to be the better of the two. I had really learned to love the AVRI series with other guitars I had and still have.

The AVRI instrument just feels loose. I don't know how to describe it. The string tension just isn't the same and it throws me off. I have come to acknowledge that I just prefer the Am Standard.

I sank so much into upgrading the AVRI that it doesn't make any sense for me to sell it or anything, it's a totally Larry guitar at this point.

As they say, it just is what it is. That's why if you prefer the way a guitar plays, that's all there is to it. You can change everything else about a guitar except for that factor.
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Re: Same scale length, same string gauge, but they feel different

Post by alexpigment » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:06 pm

[TANGENT WARNING]
Do you still have the original barrel saddles on the AVRI, Larry? I've never *owned* a tele without string grooves on the saddles, but I always wondered what effect the vintage solid-saddle bridge would have, since the string could theoretically move around.

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Re: Same scale length, same string gauge, but they feel different

Post by timtam » Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:45 pm

To be precise in physics terms, string tension at the same gauge, tuning, and scale length cannot vary. String tension is entirely determined by scale length (nut to saddle), tuned frequency, and string mass per unit length (~= gauge). What can vary is string stiffness (which is not just "perceived" but real). Stiffness is the string's resistance to change in length. Other than trem use, length changes occur mostly in bending, but also (smaller ones) in fretting. Stiffness is related to tension, but also to things that affect friction over the the nut and saddle (eg string break angle), and how much "residual" string length is behind that nut and saddle ... that can be pulled across the nut/saddle into bends. The trem stiffness also plays a role, as that is what the string in anchored to.

After dealing with the real physics - tension and stiffness - there is still also a "perceived" element. For example a low stiffness string may paradoxically be reported as "harder" to bend by some people, because they have to bend the string further to reach a given pitch. And that's the sensation they key into. While other people will call that same bend "easier", because the string tension against their fingers as they make the bend feels "easier" to them.

Similarly, a high action may feel "stiffer" than a low one for the same string, because you are having to push the string further down to fret it.

So, comparing across guitars, you first want to be 100% sure that the string gauges are really the same. If the differences feel the same across every string change (of the same gauge), then there's obviously a good chance that there's really a physical difference in string stiffness there, in the way the strings are mounted on those guitars. For "one off" checking you can get a measurement of the string gauge with regular calipers but ideally it requires a micrometer. There is no evidence that plain strings from different manufacturers vary in tension - the physics of the "music wire" they all use doesn't really allow it. Any manufacturing tolerances have never been specified by any manufacturer AFAIK. So it's hard to know if you can buy a pack of 10's and sometimes get a high E closer to a 10.5, or maybe a 9.5.
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Re: Same scale length, same string gauge, but they feel different

Post by MattK » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:02 pm

Yeah, well said timtam. I also think in terms of the "compliance" of the string. If you have differing lengths beyond bridge or nut, and/or differing break angles, string trees, nut slot friction etc etc etc. then pushing on the string will distribute the force along the whole length, with greater or lesser resistance depending on the angles and friction etc. The only system not prone to this would be a hardtail top-loader bridge with a locking nut - then it would just be length, gauge, pitch, action height, end of story.

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Re: Same scale length, same string gauge, but they feel different

Post by MattK » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:06 pm

also neck profile and radius are critical - fretting chords etc uses a biomechanically weird setup to flex the fingers. The effort to do that depends on the position the fingers are in, and the angle of the wrist (weird but true, I used to teach this stuff). So necks we prefer may be the ones which fit our hand to reduce the effort of pushing on, or barre-ing, the strings. Mechanically the same strings could require different perceived effort depending on the neck, imagine a beautifully set up string height on a neck with is dead flat and half an inch thick. Makes my eyes water to think about doing a barre chord on that.

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Re: Same scale length, same string gauge, but they feel different

Post by Cymbaline87 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:28 pm

Wow, great answers guys, you really opened my eyes to quite a few variables I was not considering.

Makes me think, maybe these factors are the reason why sometimes we find guitars that we feel special without being able to explain exactly why.
Last edited by Cymbaline87 on Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Same scale length, same string gauge, but they feel different

Post by timtam » Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:28 pm

MatthewK wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:02 pm
Yeah, well said timtam. I also think in terms of the "compliance" of the string. If you have differing lengths beyond bridge or nut, and/or differing break angles, string trees, nut slot friction etc etc etc. then pushing on the string will distribute the force along the whole length, with greater or lesser resistance depending on the angles and friction etc. The only system not prone to this would be a hardtail top-loader bridge with a locking nut - then it would just be length, gauge, pitch, action height, end of story.
Yes, compliance is the inverse of stiffness. More compliant = less stiff. Another synonym for compliance is elasticity. I do think it helps to delineate what the real string physics are, and give things correct names. And then where possible, identify what known factors are involved in each physical quantity. That's straightforward for string tension - there's just one simple equation with three variables (scale length, tuned frequency, string mass per unit length ~= gauge). But it gets more complicated with stiffness (compliance), because they are a lot more possible factors involved. So if stiffness differs it's not really possibly to point to one factor as the thing that that's making the difference that one feels. The best you can do is try changing one of the known stiffness-related things at a time, and see if the feel changes.
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Re: Same scale length, same string gauge, but they feel different

Post by jorri » Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:41 am

But arguably guitarists dont measure tensions, although they use the word to mean the compliance or stiffness. Thats just how much work is needed and if the string needs to go further due to higher action, then it imparts more resistance force and feels tense.

On thing that is counterintuitive sometimes is truss rods- maybe because the action is lowered to conspensate. But its a feeling of floppiness. Maybe since it will make lower frets have higher action its more that there is plenty of room for them to move, and harder to grab accurately -like fingers on tight ropes to exaggerate. To me that feels floppy and eleastic band like, but probably due to the string having room to have side-side movement and place where chords are tended to be played.

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Re: Same scale length, same string gauge, but they feel different

Post by Veitchy » Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:39 pm

Cymbaline87 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:28 pm
Makes me think, maybe these factors are the reason why sometimes we find guitars that we feel special without being able to explain exactly why.
Almost certainly - there are so many setup variables on an electric guitar, even comparatively simple ones, and vastly different standards of setup depending on the store/retailer/individual you're buying them from. It makes it pretty difficult sometimes to get an level basis for comparison, even on similar guitars. That's how you get situations like Elvis Costello trading his Tele for the now famous Jazzmaster because the action was unplayably high. Dropping the saddles or working the truss rod probably would have left him with a decent playing guitar.

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Re: Same scale length, same string gauge, but they feel different

Post by Larry Mal » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:04 pm

alexpigment wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 7:06 pm
[TANGENT WARNING]
Do you still have the original barrel saddles on the AVRI, Larry? I've never *owned* a tele without string grooves on the saddles, but I always wondered what effect the vintage solid-saddle bridge would have, since the string could theoretically move around.
Well, neither has the original bridge, I had Callaham bridges on both of them, the AVRI had steel saddles and the Am Standard had brass. Since there are benders on the Am Standard, he cut grooves into the saddles.

I really liked the way the steel saddles sounded, in a Hail Mary for better playability, though, I sold that on and got a Mastery. Why not sink a lot of money into the problem, was my thinking.

For a while, I persuaded myself it worked. It didn't.

They just don't play the same and I prefer the cheaper guitar.
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Re: Same scale length, same string gauge, but they feel different

Post by alexpigment » Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:49 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:04 pm
I prefer the cheaper guitar.
I can relate to this sentiment. I basically have a fleet of Squiers at this point, in fact (all of them from the original Chinese Classic Vibe factory). I've sold off all of my American guitars and all but two of my Mexican Fenders. Yes, I'm a traitor ;)

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