Volume knob fuzz clean-up problem

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CIJ
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Volume knob fuzz clean-up problem

Post by CIJ » Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:37 am

I have a 2007 CIJ Jazzmaster with an Andy Rothstein vintage prewired assembly, so a 1 Meg linear volume pot (I think). When running into a Magnetic Effects White Atom fuzz pedal (silicon-germanium hybrid), rolling off volume on the guitar does not clean up the fuzz very well - I mean it cleans up, but only when I roll all the way back to, say, 1 on the volume knob, which is not very useful for this purpose. The clean-up trick works beautifully with my Tele through this pedal though. What gives? I'm guessing it's the fact (?) the Jazzmaster volume pot is linear rather than audio taper? Would swapping it out for a 1 Meg audio pot fix the problem? And if so, would there be any disadvantages to doing so?

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Re: Volume knob fuzz clean-up problem

Post by HarlowTheFish » Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:55 am

Sounds like it's a taper issue for sure.

The difference between a linear and audio taper (say the standard 10% taper) is that at 50% of the pot's sweep, the linear is at 50% output, whereas the audio is at 10%. When you're running a slightly compressed clean amp, linear is kinda nice because it lets you adjust the actual audible volume pretty well. If you're trying to clean up, an audio taper (the standard is 10% taper i.e. at halfway on the knob, you're outputting 10% as much as full, but you can also get 20% or 30%) gets you a bit more usable room on the knob, because you don't have to turn to the last 10% of the rotation and have more room to work with towards the bottom of the dial.

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Re: Volume knob fuzz clean-up problem

Post by CIJ » Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:15 am

Thanks for that explanation. From my reading of it, I think an audio volume pot might work better for me. I certainly use the volume knob on my Tele far more than the one on the Jazzmaster, so I guess that tells a tale.

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Re: Volume knob fuzz clean-up problem

Post by HarlowTheFish » Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:34 am

Something else to consider is some kind of treble bleed, though this is very pedal/amp dependant -- some fuzzes, especially some of the more fuzz face-y types get pretty grody with a treble bleed -- because it can cut some of the low frequencies (which distort first) before the mids/highs as you roll the volume down. I like it on my guitars, but I also use more amp gain and more fuzz-adjacent distortion than fuzz proper.

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Re: Volume knob fuzz clean-up problem

Post by alexpigment » Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:53 pm

I think the Rothstein vintage kits usually have a "Volume Kit" installed, which I would assume is just their name for a treble bleed. It could be that this is actually causing the problem, since those often *add* highs as you turn the volume down. I know Harlow mentioned above that *low frequencies* distort first, but I feel like my experience says the opposite (note: I wouldn't bet my life on this). After all, a lot of "treble booster" circuits were the original distortion pedals. At any rate, if you're not terrible at soldering, it may be worth just unsoldering the "volume kit" from the two volume lugs to see if that has a different effect.

Lastly, I'll mention that conventional wisdom is to use a *linear* volume pot and an *audio* tone pot. In my experience, this works well for clean, but doesn't work as well for using your volume as a gain control. In other words, an audio taper volume pot might work better for you.

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Re: Volume knob fuzz clean-up problem

Post by ChrisDesign » Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:23 am

HarlowTheFish wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:34 am
Something else to consider is some kind of treble bleed, though this is very pedal/amp dependant -- some fuzzes, especially some of the more fuzz face-y types get pretty grody with a treble bleed -- because it can cut some of the low frequencies (which distort first) before the mids/highs as you roll the volume down. I like it on my guitars, but I also use more amp gain and more fuzz-adjacent distortion than fuzz proper.
Audio taper pot with a treble bleed = the future!

Fender really should install treble bleeds on all their non-reissue guitars. Having said that, Fender make weird choices on their wiring. The standard/ player jazzmaster has humbuckers yet uses a 250k tone pot with a 0.1 uF capacitor. This kills the tone. The 250k pot makes sense when coil tapping, but that is the exception rather than the rule. Also, the capacitor value is simply too high unless you’re playing jazz. Playing jazz is all good, but why include ceramic high output pickups‽ the whole wiring is a mess. Just rip it all out and rewire! 500k audio pots, treble bleed on volume, alnico V humbuckers, and bypass filter on the split coil to enhance the single coil tone. Then you have a Swiss Army knife of a guitar! Why couldn’t fender so this from the start?
"I own a '66 Jaguar. That's the guitar I polish, and baby - I refuse to let anyone touch it when I jump into the crowd." - Kurt Cobain

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Re: Volume knob fuzz clean-up problem

Post by HarlowTheFish » Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:10 am

alexpigment wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 5:53 pm
I know Harlow mentioned above that *low frequencies* distort first, but I feel like my experience says the opposite (note: I wouldn't bet my life on this). After all, a lot of "treble booster" circuits were the original distortion pedals. At any rate, if you're not terrible at soldering, it may be worth just unsoldering the "volume kit" from the two volume lugs to see if that has a different effect.
The reason treble boosters boost treble (and upper mids, but generally higher frequencies overall) is that they require less energy to amplify, and are more efficient. Besides, treble boosters being used as distortions was originally kind of an off-label sort of thing, because they were pretty much just intended to do what they say on the tin -- the distortion was an unintended-but-awesome side effect of kinda crummy older electronics and very rudimentary circuits.

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Re: Volume knob fuzz clean-up problem

Post by alexpigment » Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:01 am

HarlowTheFish wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:10 am
The reason treble boosters boost treble (and upper mids, but generally higher frequencies overall) is that they require less energy to amplify, and are more efficient. Besides, treble boosters being used as distortions was originally kind of an off-label sort of thing, because they were pretty much just intended to do what they say on the tin -- the distortion was an unintended-but-awesome side effect of kinda crummy older electronics and very rudimentary circuits.
I don't disagree with any of this, so I think I must be misunderstanding what you meant when you said low frequencies distort first. I've got guitars with very similar bridge/neck pickups (i.e. same reading, roughly the same pickup height), and the bridge is usually more "distorted" (overdriven, growly) sounding with the same gain level compared to the neck, even if the neck pickup has a perceived louder clean tone. I have a feeling you're talking about technical sonic properties and I'm just talking about the perceived effect of high frequencies into a distortion pedal.

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Re: Volume knob fuzz clean-up problem

Post by alexpigment » Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:12 am

ChrisDesign wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:23 am
Audio taper pot with a treble bleed = the future!
Don't count out audio vol & tone with 50s wiring. I know everyone's setup is different and each person interacts with their guitars differently, but the tonal change when lowering the volume is non-existent, and the only *downside* is just a very small drop in volume when moving from 10 to 8 on the tone pot. For me, that's never been an issue and I don't actively even notice it. By contrast, I've never heard a treble bleed circuit that felt *natural* - maybe some further experimenting with the resistor values would change that, but treble bleeds at the very least aren't a "one size fits all" solution.

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Re: Volume knob fuzz clean-up problem

Post by HarlowTheFish » Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:17 am

alexpigment wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:01 am
HarlowTheFish wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 4:10 am
The reason treble boosters boost treble (and upper mids, but generally higher frequencies overall) is that they require less energy to amplify, and are more efficient. Besides, treble boosters being used as distortions was originally kind of an off-label sort of thing, because they were pretty much just intended to do what they say on the tin -- the distortion was an unintended-but-awesome side effect of kinda crummy older electronics and very rudimentary circuits.
I don't disagree with any of this, so I think I must be misunderstanding what you meant when you said low frequencies distort first. I've got guitars with very similar bridge/neck pickups (i.e. same reading, roughly the same pickup height), and the bridge is usually more "distorted" (overdriven, growly) sounding with the same gain level compared to the neck, even if the neck pickup has a perceived louder clean tone. I have a feeling you're talking about technical sonic properties and I'm just talking about the perceived effect of high frequencies into a distortion pedal.
Basically, a low-frequency note of the same perceivable volume as a higher-frequency note requires more physical energy to amplify -- on the other hand, what guitar players understand as "distortion" is specifically the higher-harmonicky goodness from distorting the midrange and treble frequencies (super distorted lows might be called "muddy" or "tubby" because they're really not adding much to the perceived distortion, but they still get amplified).

By cutting bass, you make whatever amplification circuit (amp, pedal, whatever) have way less signal to work with, which means it can keep a lot of the audible volume of the midrange/treble while cutting the bass, which takes up a lot of headroom in said circuit and makes it distort way sooner. If you have an EQ kicking around, plug it into a distorted amp and start cutting low end -- you'll still have some of that growly overdrivey midrange and treble, but you get a decent bit more headroom. Unlike an EQ, though, the volume knob is cutting the overall output level too, it's just hitting the bass first, so you get a bit more headroom from less bass and a bit more headroom from just lowering the overall output level, without losing as much of the mids and treble (which is where you get the most usable, audible content in a guitar signal).

YMMV obviously, and I'm no electrical engineer, that that's been my experience on all of my guitars.
alexpigment wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:12 am
ChrisDesign wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:23 am
Audio taper pot with a treble bleed = the future!
Don't count out audio vol & tone with 50s wiring. I know everyone's setup is different and each person interacts with their guitars differently, but the tonal change when lowering the volume is non-existent, and the only *downside* is just a very small drop in volume when moving from 10 to 8 on the tone pot. For me, that's never been an issue and I don't actively even notice it. By contrast, I've never heard a treble bleed circuit that felt *natural* - maybe some further experimenting with the resistor values would change that, but treble bleeds at the very least aren't a "one size fits all" solution.
Definitely an option as well. Not my pick, because I'm generally running my tone around 6 or 7 and the output loss sucks, but especially if you don't use it very much it's a pretty good choice.

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Re: Volume knob fuzz clean-up problem

Post by alexpigment » Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:33 am

Got it, we're on the same page now. I misunderstood what you were implying initially when you made that statement about the low frequencies. Also, you really find the volume change to be that significant with 50s wiring? I generally use 250k pots, so maybe it's a different ballgame as you step up to 500k and 1meg. For me, the volume trop would be the same as going from like 10 to 9.

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Re: Volume knob fuzz clean-up problem

Post by HarlowTheFish » Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:08 am

alexpigment wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:33 am
Got it, we're on the same page now. I misunderstood what you were implying initially when you made that statement about the low frequencies. Also, you really find the volume change to be that significant with 50s wiring? I generally use 250k pots, so maybe it's a different ballgame as you step up to 500k and 1meg. For me, the volume trop would be the same as going from like 10 to 9.
For my setup, yeah. I go for pretty punchy, middy tones across the gain range, and especially as I go into high gain stuff, I try to mostly push the amp/pedals with the guitar instead of piling on the gain. I run the tone around halfway (and on my parts Mustang, the bass cut around halfway too) so I have a bit of EQ headroom to go brighter, darker, bassier, or thinner, and I use the volume knob (with a treble bleed -- I use the Ibanez 330pf value, so it's not so much evenly cutting bass and treble as it is cutting the bass first and making it a bit brighter as you roll down) to bring gain levels down. With 50s wiring, having the tone down where I like it cuts enough volume that I have to turn the gain up on the amp, but when I turn the tone back up it becomes a bit too much (bright guitar, bright pedal, bright amp, so I kinda have to keep the gain down so it doesn't get shrill).

The treble bleed is nice because I can basically roll the volume down on my highest-gain, boosted tone, and still get something clean enough for 30s jazz ala Charlie Christian, because the guitar is going from thicc high gain to slightly boxy cleans with tons of harmonics, instead of going from thicc gain to tubby, dark cleans.

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Re: Volume knob fuzz clean-up problem

Post by MechaBulletBill » Thu Sep 09, 2021 7:40 am

ChrisDesign wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:23 am
Audio taper pot with a treble bleed = the future!

Fender really should install treble bleeds on all their non-reissue guitars.
not that i'm particularly interested in modern production guitars but, a treble bypass cap as stock on, say, a telecaster, would put me off more

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Re: Volume knob fuzz clean-up problem

Post by marqueemoon » Thu Sep 09, 2021 8:21 am

I have a 4 knob White Atom coming today. I will try with a conventionally wired JM and report back.

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Re: Volume knob fuzz clean-up problem

Post by Veitchy » Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:22 pm

alexpigment wrote:
Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:12 am
Don't count out audio vol & tone with 50s wiring. I know everyone's setup is different and each person interacts with their guitars differently, but the tonal change when lowering the volume is non-existent, and the only *downside* is just a very small drop in volume when moving from 10 to 8 on the tone pot. For me, that's never been an issue and I don't actively even notice it. By contrast, I've never heard a treble bleed circuit that felt *natural* - maybe some further experimenting with the resistor values would change that, but treble bleeds at the very least aren't a "one size fits all" solution.
This is my go to first off, as I find it messes with fuzzes less than a treble bleed. I don't mind the interaction of the pots as I'm generally riding them a fair bit anyway. Super easy to reverse as well if you don't like it.

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