Stock 2020 Classic Vibe Jazzmaster Setup / Tuning Issues

For help with setups and other technical issues.
User avatar
specialmonkey
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:36 am
Location: South Portland, Maine, USA

Stock 2020 Classic Vibe Jazzmaster Setup / Tuning Issues

Post by specialmonkey » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:25 am

I added 2 stacked (.50 + .25) Stewart McDonald shims to my neck pocket and it has allowed the bridge position to be higher while keeping the action regular and increasing pressure on the stock Mustang style bridge [by increasing the break angle].

I wonder though, would it have been better to add just 1 shim (maybe a 1 degree, which I also have)? It seems with 2 stacked, the short end of the shim would be less short vs with just 1 shim?

With 2 shims stacked, it seems the shim angle is not as sharp as it could be (because the lower end is not as low as it could be with just 1 shim?), though I'm also getting a fatter angle where they are stacked on the tall side, inside the neck pocket, closest to where neck meets the body.

How is the shim angle determined? Is it just by feel and ability to get pressure on bridge with desired action?

I went to 11-49s for now from the stock 9-42s - and did not do anything to the nut.

I'm having tuning issues now but am not 100% sure they're nut related, or even that they were not present prior to shimming and string gauge changing.

I have an electronic tuner and tried to set intonation, but couldn't reliably get a string to stay in tune. They seem to fluctuate wildly between flat and sharp, so therefore setting intonation was spotty. I set it as best as I could with the fluctuations and don't notice wildly discordant chords up and down the neck, but would like to get it more exact. It also seemed the turning direction of the saddle lengthening screw (clockwise to flatten, counter-clockwise to sharpen?) wasn't always working as expected, and even seemed reversed at times, but possibly is related to the issue of the string not staying in tune?

I never noticed the tuning issue before shimming and changing the gauge of the strings [from 9s to 11s, now with much heavier bass strings, 49 vs 42] but had only been using a TC Electronic poly tune (in chromatic mode) clip tuner, which still, even now, with heavier strings, fluctuates much less when trying to tune vs when using a directly connected electronic tuner. I can see the green in-tune light when tuning open strings with the clip tuner vs a constant flat / sharp fluctuation when using my directly connected electronic Korg OT-120 tuner.

As measured by the clip tuner, before and after changes, the guitar seems to stay in tune OK. Using the electronic tuner, not so much.

I only tried the electronic tuner after the shim and string gauge changes when attempting to set intonation.

One thing I think I hear are occasional pings from my rocking mustang bridge while tuning.

I do try to ensure it is 90 degrees / directly upright, so its plane is parallel to the guitar body, and it is centered in the thimbles.

Could these pings be influenced by a too tight nut, something with the tremolo tension spring, or too steep a shim angle (too much pressure on bridge)? The tremolo spring adjust seems only to position the arm and give it the desired up down tension - my CV version doesn't have a lock button.

I have 11/48s and 10/46s (along with nut sauce) on the way to try - which, if the issue is nut related, might help alleviate. I'm reluctant to sand or file the nut (no experience), but might if I can determine it is indeed the issue. If not nut, what?

I might get some Uo-Chikyu nut files or fine sandpaper if that is all that's required.

Despite the current tuning issue, I really love this guitar! It's beautiful, sounds great, and feels really nice to play.
Last edited by specialmonkey on Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:50 am, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
adamrobertt
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 2408
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:28 am
Contact:

Re: Stock 2020 Classic Vibe Jazzmaster Setup / Tuning Issues

Post by adamrobertt » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:42 am

Couple things:

1) I'm guessing most of your issues are the nut. You went up two gauges - you'll need the nut slots filed. If you don't want to do it yourself, any competent tech can do it for you. The pinging sounds are classic nut binding noises. Very slight possibility it could be the tailpiece, but it's probably the nut.

2) As far as intonation goes - setting the bridge intonation actually doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the guitar "stays in tune." All it does it ensures that fretted notes above the 12th fret sound in tune. That's it. Again, I suspect the nut here.

3) Fluctuations are normal. Setting intonation is an art, not an exact science. It will never be 100% perfect. You're seeing the fluctuations because you're using a more accurate tuner, and you're probably picking too hard. When you pluck a note strongly, it will ring sharp for a second and then level out. When I set my intonation I make sure to only lightly play so I can get a clearer reading.

4) I'd ditch the two shims and just put one in there.

User avatar
specialmonkey
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:36 am
Location: South Portland, Maine, USA

Re: Stock 2020 Classic Vibe Jazzmaster Setup / Tuning Issues

Post by specialmonkey » Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:08 am

adamrobertt wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:42 am
Couple things:

1) I'm guessing most of your issues are the nut. You went up two gauges - you'll need the nut slots filed. If you don't want to do it yourself, any competent tech can do it for you. The pinging sounds are classic nut binding noises. Very slight possibility it could be the tailpiece, but it's probably the nut.

2) As far as intonation goes - setting the bridge intonation actually doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the guitar "stays in tune." All it does it ensures that fretted notes above the 12th fret sound in tune. That's it. Again, I suspect the nut here.

3) Fluctuations are normal. Setting intonation is an art, not an exact science. It will never be 100% perfect. You're seeing the fluctuations because you're using a more accurate tuner, and you're probably picking too hard. When you pluck a note strongly, it will ring sharp for a second and then level out. When I set my intonation I make sure to only lightly play so I can get a clearer reading.

4) I'd ditch the two shims and just put one in there.
Thanks for the advice! Good to know I may be able to narrow this down entirely to the nut. I wonder if using 10-46s could resolve the issue? Are 11s that much more ideal for a CV JM?

I didn't think intonation helped with tuning stability, but just wanted to get it set, despite my possible tuning issues. Good to have a more nuanced understanding of what it does. My understanding had been it just made the notes all over sound better with each other, a sort of fine tuning of all the variables (nut, frets, saddle, plate). I'll try your picking suggestions when trying to set intonation next time, hopefully the tuning will be more stable with a better nut (even with the expected fluctuations). I did try to modulate my fretting this time, but think the nut issue must have come into play.

Which shim would you go with, I chose the .50 + .25 because it seemed people went either with .50 or 1.0 - I have a .25, .50, and a 1.0. Do you think stacking 2 shims is less than ideal for the reasons I speculated about?

thanks!

User avatar
adamrobertt
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 2408
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:28 am
Contact:

Re: Stock 2020 Classic Vibe Jazzmaster Setup / Tuning Issues

Post by adamrobertt » Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:25 am

specialmonkey wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:08 am
adamrobertt wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:42 am
Couple things:

1) I'm guessing most of your issues are the nut. You went up two gauges - you'll need the nut slots filed. If you don't want to do it yourself, any competent tech can do it for you. The pinging sounds are classic nut binding noises. Very slight possibility it could be the tailpiece, but it's probably the nut.

2) As far as intonation goes - setting the bridge intonation actually doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the guitar "stays in tune." All it does it ensures that fretted notes above the 12th fret sound in tune. That's it. Again, I suspect the nut here.

3) Fluctuations are normal. Setting intonation is an art, not an exact science. It will never be 100% perfect. You're seeing the fluctuations because you're using a more accurate tuner, and you're probably picking too hard. When you pluck a note strongly, it will ring sharp for a second and then level out. When I set my intonation I make sure to only lightly play so I can get a clearer reading.

4) I'd ditch the two shims and just put one in there.
Thanks for the advice! Good to know I may be able to narrow this down entirely to the nut. I wonder if using 10-46s could resolve the issue? Are 11s that much more ideal for a CV JM?

I didn't think intonation helped with tuning stability, but just wanted to get it set, despite my possible tuning issues. Good to have a more nuanced understanding of what it does. My understanding had been it just made the notes all over sound better with each other, a sort of fine tuning of all the variables (nut, frets, saddle, plate). I'll try your picking suggestions when trying to set intonation next time, hopefully the tuning will be more stable with a better nut (even with the expected fluctuations). I did try to modulate my fretting this time, but think the nut issue must have come into play.

Which shim would you go with, I chose the .50 + .25 because it seemed people went either with .50 or 1.0 - I have a .25, .50, and a 1.0. Do you think stacking 2 shims is less than ideal for the reasons I speculated about?

thanks!
I personally like 1 degree, but some think it's too much.

Also the "you have to use heavy strings on an offset" is more or less BS. I have used 10s on Jazzmasters with good results, as long as it was set up properly. Just use what you like.

User avatar
Embenny
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 10363
Joined: Tue May 24, 2016 5:07 am

Re: Stock 2020 Classic Vibe Jazzmaster Setup / Tuning Issues

Post by Embenny » Thu Dec 10, 2020 10:31 am

adamrobertt wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:25 am
Also the "you have to use heavy strings on an offset" is more or less BS. I have used 10s on Jazzmasters with good results, as long as it was set up properly. Just use what you like.
Hell, I use 10s on all my Jaguars and Mustangs. Low string tension is not an issue on a properly set up offset.
The artist formerly known as mbene085.

User avatar
redchapterjubilee
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1775
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:01 am
Location: AVLNC

Re: Stock 2020 Classic Vibe Jazzmaster Setup / Tuning Issues

Post by redchapterjubilee » Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:04 am

One shim and attention to the nut will get you there. The nut is particularly bad on my CVJM as well and I plan to take mine to my local setup person for nut attention soon.

User avatar
alexpigment
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 845
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:02 pm

Re: Stock 2020 Classic Vibe Jazzmaster Setup / Tuning Issues

Post by alexpigment » Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:49 pm

Regarding the nut (where almost all tuning issues originate), a properly filed nut is important. However, lubrication is just as important and can actually solve most minor issues. If you have some vaseline, try applying some in each slot with a toothpick. I use Big Bends Nut Sauce these days due to the easier application, but vaseline helped me avoid taking my guitar to a luthier at least 4 out of 5 times. Just my 2 cents.

Also - ping sounds are almost always the nut in my experience.

User avatar
specialmonkey
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:36 am
Location: South Portland, Maine, USA

Re: Stock 2020 Classic Vibe Jazzmaster Setup / Tuning Issues

Post by specialmonkey » Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:31 pm

I finally got around to adjusting the intonation a little better using a BOSS TU-3, using the 12th harmonic and the fretted 12th (open strings also seem to match).

I did it with the guitar in playing position. The only thing I'm a little concerned about is the amount I needed to turn the screws.

Most of the saddles are pretty far down because they were all sharp (I believe) on the 12th fretted note. I needed to turn them all clockwise (if I remember).

The G saddle screw is all the way maxed out with a very tight spring.

Does this look right, or can one even judge intonation by looking at saddles?

In any event, the intonation does seem to be pretty close, though I didn't really notice it being too bad before the adjustments - maybe my ear isn't so good :).

Image

User avatar
adamrobertt
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 2408
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:28 am
Contact:

Re: Stock 2020 Classic Vibe Jazzmaster Setup / Tuning Issues

Post by adamrobertt » Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:39 pm

specialmonkey wrote:
Fri Jul 02, 2021 1:31 pm
I finally got around to adjusting the intonation a little better using a BOSS TU-3, using the 12th harmonic and the fretted 12th (open strings also seem to match).

I did it with the guitar in playing position. The only thing I'm a little concerned about is the amount I needed to turn the screws.

Most of the saddles are pretty far down because they were all sharp (I believe) on the 12th fretted note. I needed to turn them all clockwise (if I remember).

The G saddle screw is all the way maxed out with a very tight spring.

Does this look right, or can one even judge intonation by looking at saddles?

In any event, the intonation does seem to be pretty close, though I didn't really notice it being too bad before the adjustments - maybe my ear isn't so good :).

Image
It's hard to tell for sure without actually holding the guitar in my hands, but I'd suspect that something is off about this guitar. I wonder if the bridge is a little bit too far forward?

User avatar
specialmonkey
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:36 am
Location: South Portland, Maine, USA

Re: Stock 2020 Classic Vibe Jazzmaster Setup / Tuning Issues

Post by specialmonkey » Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:05 pm

From the start/top edge of the nut to the middle of the bridge pole pieces it seems to be 25 & 10/16" - or from the center back of the vibrato plate to the pole pieces it seems to be 5 & 9/16", and from the rear strap pin (measured from the body) to the middle of the bridge poles it's roughly 7 & 9/16" - from the center of the bridge pole pieces to the start of the bridge pickup (closest to the neck pickup) looks to be 2 & 7/16" From the center of the last fret to the center of the bridge poles looks to be 7 & 10/16"

the bridge itself is pretty perpendicular to the guitar, it's not really rocked forward or backward.

User avatar
specialmonkey
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:36 am
Location: South Portland, Maine, USA

Re: Stock 2020 Classic Vibe Jazzmaster Setup / Tuning Issues

Post by specialmonkey » Sat Jul 03, 2021 3:54 am

I wonder if it's possible that there is a range of saddle positions that could result in proper intonation, maybe if I let them all out so that they were closest to the nut, I'd find there was a properly intonated spot that was less extreme - sort of like how the high e looks now?

User avatar
specialmonkey
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 16
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:36 am
Location: South Portland, Maine, USA

Re: Stock 2020 Classic Vibe Jazzmaster Setup / Tuning Issues

Post by specialmonkey » Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:37 am

To answer my own question, it seems there is only one saddle position that can result in proper intonation for a string, at least in the case of my low e - which I let all the way out (so the saddle was closer to the nut), it only became intonated after screwing it down to where it had been.

User avatar
adamrobertt
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 2408
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:28 am
Contact:

Re: Stock 2020 Classic Vibe Jazzmaster Setup / Tuning Issues

Post by adamrobertt » Mon Jul 05, 2021 6:49 am

Yes, intonation is a function of the scale length. A few other things will affect intonation, like string gauge and the height of the bridge. But given x bridge height and y string gauge, you'll only get one spot where intonation is perfect. It's also of course expected that not every bridge will look the same when intonated properly, but I have not seen many properly intonated guitars with saddles like yours. Seems odd to me.

User avatar
muffonrat
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 492
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:08 am
Location: Berlin
Contact:

Re: Stock 2020 Classic Vibe Jazzmaster Setup / Tuning Issues

Post by muffonrat » Mon Jul 05, 2021 7:46 am

Looking at the picture you posted, I would suggest flipping the bridge backwards so that the screw heads face the pick ups.
This way is easier to intonate accurately imo since the springs will be able to stretch rather than being compressed.

User avatar
Bradley-Jazz
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 794
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 12:00 pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Stock 2020 Classic Vibe Jazzmaster Setup / Tuning Issues

Post by Bradley-Jazz » Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:10 am

For reference, if it is any help...

This is my MIJ JM with a Staytrem and 10s. I think I just have a little business card shim in there, but it's a while since I've had the neck off.

Image

Image

It is rattle free and plays nicely, so I think the bridge is high enough. It intonates well with the low E barrel almost identical in scale to yours at 25 21/32". That suggests that your bridge may be a little bit forward of mine.

I'd say that flipping the bridge is a good idea and if it plays in tune, then you are good to go. You could also try another set of strings, maybe a different brand. Sometimes you get a duff set. I would expect to see a bit more stagger from E to D and from G to E than your saddles show, which makes me wonder about the strings.

Oh and +1 to all the comments about adjusting the nut (pinging is a giveaway for me).
All the cheeses....

Post Reply