Help with making the Rhythm circuit sound DARKER (Now with soundclips)

[Whiny Minotaur]

In what probably is an all-time first, I'm asking for help with making my rhythm circuit sound darker. On my Jag, it's too bright -- for lack of better expression.

The rhythm circuit is plenty dark, but the problem that I have with is that it keeps certain metallic frequencies intact even when turning down the tone. The only way to combat this issue is to turn down both the volume and tone, but when that happens it becomes way too dark and causes a serious volume mismatch from the lead circuit.

It's hard to explain, but it's as if when cutting the tone, the tone circuit is cutting frequencies located in the upper mid range, and not the very top end, so instead of getting a warm jazzy tone, I end up getting a muffled, hollowing sounding tone that somehow has annoying upper frequencies. I'd say it kind of sounds like a really awful Tele neck pickup. Does anybody have any pointers? My first instinct is to fuck with the caps somehow, but I have absolutely no knowledge in that area.

By the way, for clarity's sake, the metallic frequencies I'm referring to are not the sympathetic resonance behind the bridge.

[JSett]

This shouldn't really happen just by the nature of the circuit as it's a Low Pass filter.

Maybe double check everything under there is wired correctly, mistakes do happen. Non of my Jags have ever had this issue (I think I've had about 20 over the years... vintage, modern, US, Japan, Mexican. All the same).

[GilmourD]

This shouldn't really happen just by the nature of the circuit as it's a Low Pass filter.

I don't have enough coffee in me to devise how that would have to be wired to function on only the upper mids, but to echo Johnny here a properly wired tone circuit has a rolloff frequency where everything above it is shunted to ground.

[alexpigment]

First, is this a stock Jaguar, or has it been modified in some way? Alternatively, is this a custom build Jaguar? The first thing I would be curious about is if the rhythm pots are the standard 1meg and 50k combo (which already makes it dark at 10/10), or if they are both 1meg. Secondly, the cap value is an important detail in terms of which frequencies are rolled off. Generally speaking, the higher the cap value, the more treble is taken off as you roll it down.

[Whiny Minotaur]

Thanks for the input, all!

The Jag in question is a CV Jag with a JM pickup installed in it. The guitar tech replaced it, not me, but I also don't see any reason for him to have messed with the wiring in any way, barring mistakes.

Turning on the rhythm circuit does make the guitar sound much darker than the lead circuit, but just not to the degree that I would like when the volume and tone knobs are dimed. I have to roll the tone all the way down to make it sound like I want to, but unfortunately, doing so also absolutely obliterates all high content as well, whereas it sounded pretty good at all times when it was stock.

It's a shame because I quite liked the rhythm circuit before the pickup swap and used it quite often. I'll check the wiring to see if anything's wrong, try raising the cap value, then just chalk it up to the nature of having a JM pickup in a Jag if the issue still persists.

[electric__ralph]

It's hard to explain, but it's as if when cutting the tone, the tone circuit is cutting frequencies located in the upper mid range, and not the very top end, so instead of getting a warm jazzy tone, I end up getting a muffled, hollowing sounding tone that somehow has annoying upper frequencies. I'd say it kind of sounds like a really awful Tele neck pickup. Does anybody have any pointers? My first instinct is to fuck with the caps somehow, but I have absolutely no knowledge in that area.

By the way, for clarity's sake, the metallic frequencies I'm referring to are not the sympathetic resonance behind the bridge.

Any chance the pickups are wired out of phase?

What sound and effects are you using? If you’ve got any kind of distortion / fuzz / etc… those effects will add higher frequency harmonics back into the tone. You might need an EQ pedal in your signal chain.

[JSett]

Thanks for the input, all!

The Jag in question is a CV Jag with a JM pickup installed in it. The guitar tech replaced it, not me, but I also don't see any reason for him to have messed with the wiring in any way, barring mistakes.

Turning on the rhythm circuit does make the guitar sound much darker than the lead circuit, but just not to the degree that I would like when the volume and tone knobs are dimed. I have to roll the tone all the way down to make it sound like I want to, but unfortunately, doing so also absolutely obliterates all high content as well, whereas it sounded pretty good at all times when it was stock.

It's a shame because I quite liked the rhythm circuit before the pickup swap and used it quite often. I'll check the wiring to see if anything's wrong, try raising the cap value, then just chalk it up to the nature of having a JM pickup in a Jag if the issue still persists.

Is the JM pickup in the neck? Could be a phase issue

A sound sample would be helpful

[alexpigment]

Is the JM pickup in the neck? Could be a phase issue

A sound sample would be helpful

I'm assuming that the rhythm circuit is standard (i.e. it's the neck pickup only). If so, it can't be a phase issue, since that can only happen when two pickups are being used at once. A sound sample might still be helpful though if we're able to hear the lead vs rhythm tone.

[JSett]

Is the JM pickup in the neck? Could be a phase issue

A sound sample would be helpful

I'm assuming that the rhythm circuit is standard (i.e. it's the neck pickup only). If so, it can't be a phase issue, since that can only happen when two pickups are being used at once. A sound sample might still be helpful though if we're able to hear the lead vs rhythm tone.

Ahh, yes, true.

Well, I'm flat out of ideas then. It's impossible for high frequencies to bypass the hardwired LPF that a correctly wired rhythm circuit contains.

[Whiny Minotaur]

Thanks again for the advice!

I haven’t been able to check out the wiring on my Jag yet, but I’ll upload a soundclip in a few days of the lead/rhythm circuits. It might just be me tripping and everything’s perfectly fine for all I know lol

[Whiny Minotaur]

Okay, I made a recording of my guitar on the lead circuit, rhythm circuit with both volume and tone dimed, and finally a clip of the rhythm circuit with tone almost all the way down.

To my ears, there is still a sort of weird hi-fi string sound going on in the lead circuit even when the tone is rolled almost all the way down, despite sounding more muffled. Am I tripping, or is this just normal behavior?

[andy_tchp]

I'm not hearing anything especially weird.

Do you find the problem lessens when you roll the volume control down (even just to '8' or '9' instead of on full?)

What's the recording setup, amp + mic or an interface/modeller?

[Whiny Minotaur]

I'm not hearing anything especially weird.

Do you find the problem lessens when you roll the volume control down (even just to '8' or '9' instead of on full?)

What's the recording setup, amp + mic or an interface/modeller?

Thanks for taking the time to check the clip out!

Yeah, it becomes slightly better with the volume down, and my recording setup is modeler (Ampli-Firebox) to an interface.

I guess if there's nothing particularly weird about how it sounds, it means I just really liked how the stock CV pickup on my Jag reacted with the rhythm circuit due to it being a high output pickup. If nobody else can find anything atypical about how it sounds, I'll just live with it.

[alexpigment]

Do you have a multimeter? If so, I would recommend checking lugs 1 and 3 on each of the pots in the rhythm circuit (when they're turned up to full) and making sure you're getting readings that make sense. Specially, the tone pot should be around 50k in a standard rhythm circuit. Based on what I'm hearing - admittedly on a phone at the moment - it feels like the tonal change you'd get when changing from 1meg to 250k or 500k. I'm not really hearing a shift that I would expect with a 50k tone pot.

[andy_tchp]

OK, I think I now know what you're describing - and it's what prompted me to ask about the recording chain.

I found when playing/recording with my Helix Stomp I needed to tweak the EQ (either on the 'amp' model itself or on the global output settings) to roll off some higher frequency content.

Basically, I could sense some unwanted 'stuff' happening/being reproduced around the pick attack/transients that you just don't hear when plugged into a regular guitar amp driving a real speaker.

Slightly exacerbated with offsets that have 1M pots instead of the 'usual' 250K or 500K.

Not familiar with the Ampli-Firebox but I would still see if subtle EQ adjustments can make it sound/feel right to you.