Descendant "Companion" Bridge coming soon !

For help with setups and other technical issues.
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AztecGold
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Re: Descendant "Companion" Bridge coming soon !

Post by AztecGold » Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:09 am

jorri wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:57 am
AztecGold wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:39 am
jorri wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:50 am


Having used neither, but the bridge:
-mastery has no rocking option.
-mastery changes radius.
-mastery seems like would be strange to adjust intonation on only two saddles.
-its weird overkill redesign but that said descendant is also expensive.
-no chance of strings resting on the back with descendant

And the trem, the descendant has the break angle thing as its main feature.
Ok. So it would be if you feel the bridge rocking (and thus the scale length changing) is a good thing.

Some of the above bullets are incorrect, though. The mastery bridge does not change the radius, it can be set to any radius. It gives precise intonation, the saddles can be set to any required position. And the strings cannot touch the back of the bridge plate because there isn't a back.

The whole mastery concept is that the rocking bridge is a bad design that is the source of most of the offset guitars' problems, so if we stabilize the bridge and make it out of materials that allow the string to move freely, the vibrato works even better, sustain is increased, and the guitar will hold intonation. It sounds like descendent has settled on trying to do the rocking bridge design better and that it would be the choice if you like that design and want to try to make it functional.
Aside from the back plate, it is what was meant - you can "change the radius" on mastery.
-you can only put intonation into the general shape of three wound and three plain strings.

As for descendant's, no, it seems a lot of effort made for a non-rocking design which does this alignment thing the mastery wont do (if its needed?). Its just you can also decide to have rocking bridge.

I dont know about frictionless materials, which could be an advantage on mastery style non-rocking, and if you had it rocking, a disadvantage since that requires some friction to ensure the string just rolls and returns to the same position.
I see what you mean. You can intonate the mastery bridge well, though. I set the position of the two outer saddles, and if there is any variance in the intonation of the middle string, compensate by adjusting both screws, then check the outer ones again and adjust as needed. I can get all three strings closer than a person can hear.

The actual saddle surface on a mastery is pretty small, and it stays where it is. I think this is a big advantage because the position can be measured precisely with a strobe tuner and it will remain there. The separated barrel-type saddles seem to shift laterally with tremolo use or harder strumming or even string changes, and they sometimes move forward with vibration over time. Adding to this the rocking bridge, you never know what the precise scale length will be - that is to say, where in space the saddle will be.

It's cool that more people are generating more upgrades for the offsets, and the more vintage oriented rocking bridge concept. I just don't see the intonation advantage so much.

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Re: Descendant "Companion" Bridge coming soon !

Post by timtam » Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:00 pm

AztecGold wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:09 am
The actual saddle surface on a mastery is pretty small, and it stays where it is. I think this is a big advantage because the position can be measured precisely with a strobe tuner and it will remain there. The separated barrel-type saddles seem to shift laterally with tremolo use or harder strumming or even string changes, and they sometimes move forward with vibration over time. Adding to this the rocking bridge, you never know what the precise scale length will be - that is to say, where in space the saddle will be.
At the same overall height and string gauge, the Mastery has greater saddle stability by virtue of summing the downforce of 3 strings on each of its 2 saddles. Then spread across two saddle height screws. A 6-saddle bridge at the same height has only 1/3 of the Mastery's saddle downforce on each saddle (again spread across 2 height screws in the vintage bridge, or the 2 outer ridges of Mustang-style barrel saddles). Mastery's assertion of more "string to body" energy transfer is however physics nonsense. Returning to real physics, being a fixed bridge the Mastery - if it were made of the same metal and had the same string contact area as the other bridges - would have the strings attempting to slide over the fixed saddles with trem use but often failing to do so. That would cause string forces to move its saddles around with trem use. But its "unique" chrome-plated brass saddles supposedly lower saddle friction, and the bridge also must usually be set up lower, both of which keep string-saddle friction at manageably low levels when the strings slide over its saddles with trem use. But high string-saddle friction can become a problem on Mastery bridges with saddle wear or poor setups.

The rocking bridge - with the right (higher) string-saddle friction (via higher string break angle and/or higher string gauge) - can operate precisely, and return to exactly where it started after trem use.
"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Descendant "Companion" Bridge coming soon !

Post by jorri » Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:37 am

timtam wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:00 pm
AztecGold wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:09 am
The actual saddle surface on a mastery is pretty small, and it stays where it is. I think this is a big advantage because the position can be measured precisely with a strobe tuner and it will remain there. The separated barrel-type saddles seem to shift laterally with tremolo use or harder strumming or even string changes, and they sometimes move forward with vibration over time. Adding to this the rocking bridge, you never know what the precise scale length will be - that is to say, where in space the saddle will be.
At the same overall height and string gauge, the Mastery has greater saddle stability by virtue of summing the downforce of 3 strings on each of its 2 saddles. Then spread across two saddle height screws. A 6-saddle bridge at the same height has only 1/3 of the Mastery's saddle downforce on each saddle (again spread across 2 height screws in the vintage bridge, or the 2 outer ridges of Mustang-style barrel saddles). Mastery's assertion of more "string to body" energy transfer is however physics nonsense. Returning to real physics, being a fixed bridge the Mastery - if it were made of the same metal and had the same string contact area as the other bridges - would have the strings attempting to slide over the fixed saddles with trem use but often failing to do so. That would cause string forces to move its saddles around with trem use. But its "unique" chrome-plated brass saddles supposedly lower saddle friction, and the bridge also must usually be set up lower, both of which keep string-saddle friction at manageably low levels when the strings slide over its saddles with trem use. But high string-saddle friction can become a problem on Mastery bridges with saddle wear or poor setups.

The rocking bridge - with the right (higher) string-saddle friction (via higher string break angle and/or higher string gauge) - can operate precisely, and return to exactly where it started after trem use.
I absolutely see that as a down side here. The issue of either using slippery or grabby saddles, will not suit whether it rocks or doesn't. I do prefer the rocking myself.

Is not just added force on the mastery, i think partly the saddles rotate and slide around a bit with single screws on a stock bridge. With more than one screw its geometrically stable as trying to bend a box vs a couple sheets of card is.

And the price, i admittedly thought this would be the cost of a staytrem, and preferable competition to THAT. but its the cost of a Mastery which is quite a lot. My other alternative i considered recently is a modified mustang off teh Kurdtz guitars. That does me fine with a bottle of loctite.

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Re: Descendant "Companion" Bridge coming soon !

Post by DeathJag » Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:45 am

I’ve got two Mastery bridges, each on guitars (a jag and a JM) with a wound G. They intonate perfectly, and also stay in tune with my violent tremming. I sometimes wiggle the whole guitar, lifting it from my body, and it always returns to pitch.

Being the curious fellow I am, I also ordered a few Staytrem bridges to compare. Haven’t received em yet.

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Re: Descendant "Companion" Bridge coming soon !

Post by Larry Mal » Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:06 am

DeathJag wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:45 am


Being the curious fellow I am, I also ordered a few Staytrem bridges to compare. Haven’t received em yet.
They are nice, my prediction is though that you've since grown used to the Mastery sound that you will find the StayTrem to be lacking in that regard.
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Re: Descendant "Companion" Bridge coming soon !

Post by AztecGold » Mon Mar 08, 2021 10:17 am

I have felt like the Mastery has changed the tone of each guitar I've put one on by a bit, more so on JMs than a Jag that I fitted with one, but this is a preferable change to me. Not radical, but changing saddle material has a noticeable effect, as does the... seeming increase in the power and clarity of the sound of a Mastery bridge over a stock style bridge. The bridge seems to connect to the guitar much more closely than with the stock rocking bridge. The reduction of all friction at the bridge makes the vibrato far smoother to operate as well IME. As always just my opinion or maybe my own perception.

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Re: Descendant "Companion" Bridge coming soon !

Post by timtam » Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:09 pm

"I just knew I wanted to make a sound that was the complete opposite of a Les Paul, and that’s pretty much a Jaguar." Rowland S. Howard.

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Re: Descendant "Companion" Bridge coming soon !

Post by JVG » Mon Jul 12, 2021 12:01 am

I like the post collars with the off-centre hole - that would definitely help with string alignment issues. That’s the only advantage i’m seeing over the Staytrem.

At US $165 i probably won’t be getting one, unless it turns out to have other significant benefits.

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Re: Descendant "Companion" Bridge coming soon !

Post by jondom22 » Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:03 am

Anyone got one of these yet and have some feedback?
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Re: Descendant "Companion" Bridge coming soon !

Post by wooderson » Sat Jan 08, 2022 10:03 pm

jondom22 wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:03 am
Anyone got one of these yet and have some feedback?
A bit late for an answer but I finally put the Companion I've had sitting around on my Jazzmaster tonight. I need to take it in for a setup and fret level/polish so I figured why not for now. I rotated the collars 90 degrees and there's a good amount of room for the E strings but I'd just as soon have the Staytrem 52mm spacing. Swope says it's because he didn't want to give up the fingerpicking real estate... but I don't fingerpick so there's no advantage for me.

It rocks the tiniest bit in this position so it's not dead solid like a Mastery/Mastery thimbles bridge and I straight up eyeballed the height but it feels like there's more sustain maybe? Neither a plus nor a minus in my book.

Once I buy some more 10-46s I'll probably just swap the Staytrem back on. I know them, I like them, they've never let me down. The Companion's collars and the tiny little nut that fits down into the bridge post are more fiddly. I'd need to be better at tech stuff to take full advantage and I don't want to send my guitar tech links to the Descendant Instagram and expect him to do a great job on a setup.

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Re: Descendant "Companion" Bridge coming soon !

Post by CROSS_guitars » Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:31 pm

It's probably already been covered here but what are the white nylon circles for?

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Re: Descendant "Companion" Bridge coming soon !

Post by CROSS_guitars » Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:17 pm

These things, what are they?
Only thing I can think of is that they screw to the top of the bridge to stop the High E saddle and the low E saddle from rattling, but that shouldn't happen anyway. I haven't seen anyone fix them to their bridge.

Image

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Re: Descendant "Companion" Bridge coming soon !

Post by hlamp » Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:15 am

CROSS_guitars wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:31 pm
It's probably already been covered here but what are the white nylon circles for?
CROSS_guitars wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:17 pm
These things, what are they?
Only thing I can think of is that they screw to the top of the bridge to stop the High E saddle and the low E saddle from rattling, but that shouldn't happen anyway. I haven't seen anyone fix them to their bridge.

Image
Those white nylon circles are called "coupling discs" on the Descendant's website. The Universal Companion Bridge's product page has one photo showing the coupling discs installed on that bridge.

https://swope-guitar-shop.myshopify.com ... ion-bridge

This website's how-to guide on installing the Descendant Companion Bridge explains their purpose, which is optional for the user:

https://www.homeoftone.co.uk/blogs/news ... ion-bridge
The saddles themselves are bunched right up together for a nice solid contact surface, but the bridge also comes with a pair of what Chris calls 'Coupling disks' which are essentially bushings that fit into the height adjustment thread either end of the bridge plate and you can pivot those against the outer saddles to further increase the pressure on them for a tight fit against one another. Those players hunting down sustain may enjoy experimenting with those.

Fitting the optional Coupling disks: This step is entirely optional, and is the installation of the coupling disks. As mentioned earlier, these coupling disks apply further sideways pressure onto the saddles further improving the contact points. The theory behind this is to further improve resonance/sustain. So if you like experimenting with this, you might find fitting them useful! It's a simple step, but let's have a look.

[Photos of how to install the coupling discs]

These, much like the locking grub screws, simply thread into the bridge posts. They are an offset bushing, so applying some pressure so it turns against the saddle, simply tighten the small allen key bolt until fitted. Repeat for both sides of the bridge and there you go! That will have those saddles bunched right up against each other for maximum contact if that's your thing!

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Re: Descendant "Companion" Bridge coming soon !

Post by jorri » Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:43 am

hlamp wrote:
Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:15 am
CROSS_guitars wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:31 pm
It's probably already been covered here but what are the white nylon circles for?
CROSS_guitars wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:17 pm
These things, what are they?
Only thing I can think of is that they screw to the top of the bridge to stop the High E saddle and the low E saddle from rattling, but that shouldn't happen anyway. I haven't seen anyone fix them to their bridge.

Image
Those white nylon circles are called "coupling discs" on the Descendant's website. The Universal Companion Bridge's product page has one photo showing the coupling discs installed on that bridge.

https://swope-guitar-shop.myshopify.com ... ion-bridge

This website's how-to guide on installing the Descendant Companion Bridge explains their purpose, which is optional for the user:

https://www.homeoftone.co.uk/blogs/news ... ion-bridge
The saddles themselves are bunched right up together for a nice solid contact surface, but the bridge also comes with a pair of what Chris calls 'Coupling disks' which are essentially bushings that fit into the height adjustment thread either end of the bridge plate and you can pivot those against the outer saddles to further increase the pressure on them for a tight fit against one another. Those players hunting down sustain may enjoy experimenting with those.

Fitting the optional Coupling disks: This step is entirely optional, and is the installation of the coupling disks. As mentioned earlier, these coupling disks apply further sideways pressure onto the saddles further improving the contact points. The theory behind this is to further improve resonance/sustain. So if you like experimenting with this, you might find fitting them useful! It's a simple step, but let's have a look.

[Photos of how to install the coupling discs]

These, much like the locking grub screws, simply thread into the bridge posts. They are an offset bushing, so applying some pressure so it turns against the saddle, simply tighten the small allen key bolt until fitted. Repeat for both sides of the bridge and there you go! That will have those saddles bunched right up against each other for maximum contact if that's your thing!
Sounds useful. My mustang bridge could have done with those, but don't expect they are available separately. Basically the only 'problem' being the high E saddle moved. I rolled up some tape to wedge in, but now had some tape on the underside to adjust radius that seems to have wedged it in place. I thought the descendant resolved that issue anyway with its intonation screw design though.

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