Re: Roberts Smiths Fish guitar

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.
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Re: Roberts Smiths Fish guitar

Post by Ahahah » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:01 am

eggwheat wrote: here's another
Ohohoh ! Vintage & Rare Guitars strikes again !!!  8)

Quoting "Vintage & rare guitars"
"This one has an new maple fretboard! Added in the early Eighties by the American Guitar Centre in Los Angeles (there is their mark on the neck butt.)"
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Re: Roberts Smiths Fish guitar

Post by Fall reverb » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:06 am

Ahahah wrote: The rehearsing sessions for the demos of "Pornography" were not recorded with a Jazzmaster but with an Ovation Breadwinner instead (the one he used from 1979 onwards with Siouxsie & the Banshees). Some demos were shots by a French TV @ the Pippbrook Mill Studios in Dorking in december 1981. It confirms that the Jazzmaster was not available by that time.

Being the proud owner of an Ovation Breadwinner, I have always doubted about "Pornography" being recorded with a Jazzmaster. This might sound as heresy  :D  

And here is the proof  : The Figurehead @ the Pippbrook Mill Studios, december 1981 : http://youtube.com/watch?v=zQEV7hRj73s

One of Smith's 2 white Bass VI is visible, but certainly no Jazzmaster around. Ok, some may argue that it's a playback, but the sound of the Ovation is around...
Interesting that you mention that 'Pippbrook Mill'-footage - I had also found it a few weeks ago on YouTube & was rather surprised seeing the Ovation being used by Smith for The Cure (so not as a Banshee), but what is a bit confusing is the fact that the 'foreverdrowning.net'-website has stills from the same footage, but mentions that this footage was actually taped on January 15th 1982 by TF1 France (for the program Mégahertz) & broadcast on March 21st...
http://www.foreverdrowning.net/TV.php?page=13

At any rate, there is indeed the possibility that Smith used the Ovation on this occasion because his Jazzmaster was being refinished at this time, but that would still be a rather odd reason, as Smith had - as your pic from 1980 that you previously posted here proves - at that time two Jazzmasters..
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Re: Roberts Smiths Fish guitar

Post by Ahahah » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:32 am

Fall reverb wrote: Interesting that you mention that 'Pippbrook Mill'-footage - I had also found it a few weeks ago on YouTube & was rather surprised seeing the Ovation being used by Smith for The Cure (so not as a Banshee), but what is a bit confusing is the fact that the 'foreverdrowning.net'-website has stills from the same footage, but mentions that this footage was actually taped on January 15th 1982 by TF1 France (for the program Mégahertz) & broadcast on March 21st...

At any rate, there is of course the possibility (and I'm of course speculating here) that Smith used the Ovation on this occasion because his Jazzmaster was being refinished at this time...


http://www.foreverdrowning.net/TV.php?page=13
Ah, this time they might be wrong  :D

Quoting "Ten Imaginary Years" (By Barbarian / Sutherland / Smith) & Smith speaking : "I had a few ideas for new songs and went to a studio in Surrey, the Windmill, after 03/12/1981. (Ahahah's note : Dorking is located in Surrey too, so he might have been speaking about the "Pippbrook Mill" here instead). Lol came and wrote drum parts. Then Simon came..."

Further on "We finished most demos in 6 days and they were brilliant, far more vicious than before (...). I wrote the lyrics during this period then came back in studio to finish some stuff (...).  In January 1982 we had a break for 2 weeks" and further again "We ended up recording at the RAK Studio from January 'til April".

So I have a doubt about this program being shot in January. :-\
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Re: Roberts Smiths Fish guitar

Post by Fall reverb » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:40 am

Thanks for those quotes from 'Ten Imaginary Years', Ahahah - it's of course possible that the 'foreverdrowning'-website has its facts wrong here, however one also should sometimes have his/her doubts about Smith's memory... :D
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Re: Roberts Smiths Fish guitar

Post by Ahahah » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:43 am

Fall reverb wrote: Thanks for those quotes from 'Ten Imaginary Years', Ahahah - it's of course possible that the 'foreverdrowning'-website has its facts wrong here, however one also should sometimes have his/her doubts about Smith's memory... :D
Oooooh yeah... With Smith's statements, you'd better be careful...  ;D
But it's strange he is so accurate about this period : it sounds as if he had his open agenda in front of him and commented it.
Given the "confusion" which came afterwards, it sounds really amazing.

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Re: Roberts Smiths Fish guitar

Post by Fall reverb » Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:00 am

Agreed - I was thinking the same thing when I saw his pretty detailed account here, and it's especially unusual when one realizes that Smith has claimed several times in interviews that he doesn't have any recollection about some tours he did in the early 80's... :D
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Re: Roberts Smiths Fish guitar

Post by Ahahah » Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:27 am

Fall reverb wrote: P.P.S. - also courtesy of YouTube - here's the only footage I've ever seen featuring Michael Dempsey as well as Robert Smith's first Jazzmaster before it was modified -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPpXMoWd1Ms
Amazing ! I never noticed that (perhaps because the first LP leaves me cold, but 2 or 3 songs).

I had no time to comment this (lunch) : we should check the ending of "Staring at the sea - The images". I think they mention the dates when the clips were shot (or is it the release date of the singles ?).

Anyway : it means than "10:15 Saturday night" was already recorded. So, quoting "Ten Imaginary Years" again :

"On 20/09/1978, (...) the band book the Morgan Studio 4. The morning after they record 5 songs : Killing an Arab, 10:15, Fire in Cairo, Plastic Passion and Three Imaginary Boys". So for sure, by that time, the white JM had not been modified (the clip was shot after the recording). They came back again to the Morgan by 12/10/1978 to record the remaining songs of "3 imaginary boys".

However, Mike Hedges said that Robert was still using his £20 Woolworth's Top 20 and a HH amp by the time of the sessions. Chris Parry mentions that the amp burst everytime Robert ended playing the "3 imaginary boys" solo.  

On the 19/12/1978, they played the "Hope & Anchor" in Islington. Robert was still playing with the Top 20 (there are many available pictures of this show, no Jazzmaster to be seen).

By the 08/01/1979, the come back again to the Morgan Studio. This time, Mickael Dempsey states : "Chris Parry managed inducing Smith to buy a Fender Jazzmaster and a Roland JC-160".

By March 1979, at the Marquee Club, London, he was still using the Top 20 (Smith was a stubborn boy...).

So what happened to the Jazzmaster between early January and  01/07/1979 @ Strand Lyceum Ballroom (the JM was modified by then, and that's the earliest officially dated picture showing it).
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Re: Roberts Smiths Fish guitar

Post by Ahahah » Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:43 am

And here is one more from my archives...  :)

Image
Shot on  06/12/1979 @ the Music Machine, London

2 modified white JM were already there... 

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Re: Roberts Smiths Fish guitar

Post by Ahahah » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:15 pm

Fall reverb wrote: Interesting that you mention that 'Pippbrook Mill'-footage - I had also found it a few weeks ago on YouTube & was rather surprised seeing the Ovation being used by Smith for The Cure (so not as a Banshee), but what is a bit confusing is the fact that the 'foreverdrowning.net'-website has stills from the same footage, but mentions that this footage was actually taped on January 15th 1982 by TF1 France (for the program Mégahertz) & broadcast on March 21st...
Don't know... Maybe both JM had a refin at the same time.

What I know is that despite Smith saying the Breadwinner was a "Banshees only" guitars, it's visible here. Moreover, there are some shots of the 1985 Barcelona Studio 54 concert showing the Ovation on stage.

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Re: Roberts Smiths Fish guitar

Post by Fall reverb » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:18 pm

Ahahah wrote: So what happened to the Jazzmaster between early January and  01/07/1979 @ Strand Lyceum Ballroom (the JM was modified by then, and that's the earliest officially dated picture showing it).
Thanks a lot again for posting those quotes from 'Ten Imaginary Years' & for posting that last pic Ahahah, it's very much appreciated again! :)
One slight correction however regarding the earliest date were Smith can be first seen with his modified Jazzmaster - this pic was posted earlier in this thread by me, and it was apparently taken on May 6th 1979 when The Cure were doing their first John Peel-session, so this might actually be the first time where the modified JM made its first public appearance -

Image
Ahahah wrote: By March 1979, at the Marquee Club, London, he was still using the Top 20 (Smith was a stubborn boy...).
It's of course also possible that Smith was not being a 'stubborn boy' on this occasion but that the Jazzmaster was being modified around this time, and that's why Smith used his old 'Top Twenty'-guitar here..
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Re: Roberts Smiths Fish guitar

Post by Ahahah » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:45 pm

Fall reverb wrote:
Ahahah wrote: So what happened to the Jazzmaster between early January and  01/07/1979 @ Strand Lyceum Ballroom (the JM was modified by then, and that's the earliest officially dated picture showing it).
One slight correction however regarding the earliest date were Smith can be first seen with his modified Jazzmaster - this pic was posted earlier in this thread by me, and it was apparently taken on May 6th 1979 when The Cure were doing their first John Peel-session, so this might actually be the first time where the modified JM made its first public appearance -

Image
Quite right, I forgot about this one.

By the way, the first The Cure's Peel Sessions were recorded in 1978.
The one you mention here seems to be slightly out of date : it took place on the 09/05/1979, according to the BBC's archives (just joking : 3 days in the history of a modified Jazzmaster is a matter of discussion for crazy fans, lol).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/johnpeel/artists/t/thecure/

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Re: Roberts Smiths Fish guitar

Post by Ahahah » Sun Apr 15, 2007 12:58 pm

I don't know if someone will ask again about Robert's Jazzmasters, but in about 2 days, we've a fat huge file of history...  :D

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Re: Roberts Smiths Fish guitar

Post by Fall reverb » Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:01 pm

Ahahah wrote:
By the way, the first The Cure's Peel Sessions were recorded in 1978.
The one you mention here seems to be slightly out of date : it took place on the 09/05/1979, according to the BBC's archives (just joking : 3 days in the history of a modified Jazzmaster is a matter of discussion for crazy fans, lol).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/johnpeel/artists/t/thecure/
Yep, you're absolutely right - The Cure did their first Peel-session in '78, not '79...
There seems b.t.w. to be some confusion about the actual recording date of their second one - I unfortunately don't own the CD so I can't check what date is mentioned there, however I've seen several sources that claim that they taped their 2nd Peel-session on May 6th, but it's indeed not very relevant for this particular discussion... ;)

P.S. - I think the turn this thread took is most interesting/informative, as I've learned quite a few things more about The Cure & particularly Smith's Jazzmaster(s) since this weekend, and I wonder if anyone else has ever attempted to track down the particulars/history of Smith's Jazzmasters the same way before... ;)
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Re: Roberts Smiths Fish guitar

Post by Ahahah » Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:09 pm

Fall reverb wrote: P.S. - I think the turn this thread took is most interesting/informative, as I've learned quite a few things more about The Cure & particularly Smith's Jazzmaster(s) since this weekend, and I wonder if anyone else has ever attempted to track down the particulars/history of Smith's Jazzmasters the same way before... ;)
Another good point for the Offsetguitars.com forum  8)

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Re: Roberts Smiths Fish guitar

Post by Fall reverb » Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:10 pm

Ahahah wrote: Another good point for the Offsetguitars.com forum  8)
Indeed! ;)

During my search for clear pics of Smith's Jazzmasters I of course also consulted Philippe Carly's fabulous website (www.newwavephotos.com), which as you probably know also contains a great amount of live-pics of The Cure, and I noticed that Smith seems to have used both (at this stage still white) Jazzmasters during The Cure's concert at 'Follies' in Brussels on October 7th 1980 - the first pic shows Smith playing the JM that has the 2 very distinctive light spots underneath the 'Top Twenty'-pickup, and the second photo shows him playing what appears to be his other JM, as this one does not have the 2 spots but instead has a distinctive light spot close to the toggle switch -

Image

Image

P.S. - here are two other very cool pics taken by monsieur Carly at the 'Klacik' in Brussels on December 22nd 1979 - Smith's JM (the one with the 2 light spots on its pickguard) has clearly been stripped, and in the background his other JM can be seen, and it appears - although I'm not 100% sure - that the one in the background features a white finish...

Image Image
Last edited by Fall reverb on Sun Apr 15, 2007 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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