Flatwounds on JM

[RavenCrest]

When looking at the original 1959 Manual, they mention flatwounds as what came on the JM from the factory. Does anyone here use flatwounds, if so, what do they sound like?

[mediocreplayer]

My thoughts: If you think of the guitar sound as a spectrum that goes from "Acoustic" to "Electric", then flats pull the sound more towards "Acoustic" compared to rounds -- they just sound cleaner. It is difficult to describe in words but that's a pretty cheap experiment that you should probably try. Some manufacturers do half-rounds, which is sort of an in-between.

Critics usually call flats "dull," which I think is the derogatory way of describing what I am trying to describe in the previous paragraph. I personally love the sound and think it's nice to have a guitar strung with flats around.

[tqi]

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[Telliot]

As most of you probably know, I’m a big fan of flats. I’ve got them literally in every guitar I own, including my D-18 and Club Bass. In almost every case I’ve got a mixed set; Pyramid flats on the bass strings, and D’Addario XL on the treble strings (I gave up on wound G strings long ago). I feel they bring out the fundamental tones better and get me closer to the guitar sounds I grew up loving. Plus, they last forever, and I HATE string scrape, so there’s that. I agree they sound better (to my ears) on single coils, but I know a lot of people use them with HBs, especially if they’re into playing jazz.

[Synchro]

Flat wounds were fairly common in the early ‘60s, and allegedly used on many classic Surf recording. There are a lot of different sounds that you can get from flats, depending upon the manufacturer. I personally use Thomastik Jazz Swings on almost all of my guitars, and they have decent treble and a rich sound in the bass register. Besides that, if you keep them clean they will last for years.

[Tyjangles]

Flat wounds were fairly common in the early ‘60s, and allegedly used on many classic Surf recording. There are a lot of different sounds that you can get from flats, depending upon the manufacturer. I personally use Thomastik Jazz Swings on almost all of my guitars, and they have decent treble and a rich sound in the bass register. Besides that, if you keep them clean they will last for years.

I’m still on my first set of flats. They’re on my JM. How do you keep them clean?

[Synchro]

Flat wounds were fairly common in the early ‘60s, and allegedly used on many classic Surf recording. There are a lot of different sounds that you can get from flats, depending upon the manufacturer. I personally use Thomastik Jazz Swings on almost all of my guitars, and they have decent treble and a rich sound in the bass register. Besides that, if you keep them clean they will last for years.

I’m still on my first set of flats. They’re on my JM. How do you keep them clean?

Just wipe them down every time you finish playing. A polish cloth will do the trick, but there’s also a Music Nomad string cleaner, which is sort of a paddle that allows you to clean between the strings and the fretboard, so I keep one of those right next to where I hang my guitars.

The life of Thomastik flats is astounding. They just don’t seem to age like most strings. I usually replace the top three plain strings several times before the wound strings begin to lose their voice.

[tqi]

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[Synchro]

I agree they sound better (to my ears) on single coils, but I know a lot of people use them with HBs, especially if they’re into playing jazz.

Let me clarify. They specifically didn't sound good on the Daisy Rock humbuckers. That's why I mentioned they'd work fine with a P-Rails. The bass Daisy Rock also has humbuckers, and while that's obviously a very different frequency curve, they sound great there. They also sound great on my stock "Jazzmaster", which is more accurately, a long-scale Squier Jagmaster, complete with it's early 2000's Squier humbuckers. And my mod Jagmaster, before it got stripped down for a "More Jazzmaster conversion, also sounded great with both 10 and 14 flats, on a mix of stock Squier 'bucker (the OG Bridge Pickup, but in the neck) and a P-Rails.

This was a problem of a specific set of pickups, not humbuckers or flatwounds in general.

The number of possible mathematical combinations of pickup characteristics and string characteristics is huge.

My background is Jazz guitar, and the classic, postwar, Jazz guitar sound was usually produced using an archtop such as an ES-175, with either P-90s or Gibson Humbuckers, with flat wound strings. Some flatwounds were very, very dark, but others were not. So while the stereotype Jazz guitar was an ES-175 with flats sourced from the suppliers for the Golden Gate Bridge, but like most stereotypes, that picture was not completely accurate. My instructor was a Denver area Jazz player by the name of Dale Bruning, and indeed, he played ES-175s with flat wounds, but he used fairly light Thomastiks, which have a very different timbre than some of the other flat wounds. He is a player in the mold of Jim Hall, and used an old octal-tube Gibson amp and because Thomastiks were not widely available in those days, he had a friend in New York (probably Jim Hall) who would ship Thomastiks to him.

Some flats were very dark. My personal experience with D’Addario flats is that they start out quite bright, but quickly become dull. There are players who like this for old school Jazz guitar, so these strings have their place. I use D’Addario flats on my Warwick fretless bass, and I love them for that application, but this is a good example of specific combinations that work well. In this case, dense exotic woods, Jazz Bass passive pickups and D’Addario flats seem to really click, and give me good sustain and solid fundamentals, without sharp transients. Other flats I’ve seen are likewise very dark, and probably off-putting to most players, but some players want that sound.

Thomastiks are round steel core, with pure nickel windings and have a very strong, very pure fundamental tone with a fair amount of overtones, but somewhat suppressed sharp transients. D’Addario Chromes have chrome steel windings and, IIRC, a hex core. In between, there are other possible combinations of materials and constructions which, at least to me, mean that there are flat wounds, and then again, there are flat wounds. (I bought my first set of Pyramids just a few days ago, so I have no experience with them and won’t comment either way about their character. I’ve heard many great things about them, however, so they must be pretty good.)

Where I find it interesting, is the intersection of flat wound strings with instruments designed to have a lot of treble response. Jazzmasters were conceived as a solid body Jazz guitar, but they have strength in the upper frequencies which most archtops don’t have. The Jaguar was a treble-making machine, with bright pickups, a short scale which favors higher frequencies and mounted on a solid body. Put flats on these models, and you have strings that reduce shape transients mounted on a guitar that creates strong highs. It’s a sound that would have been all but impossible to achieve with an ES-175 with P-90s.

Humbuckers have a lot of variation, too. Humbuckers can have high inductance, and inductors restrict higher frequencies. Gibson PAFs are famed for their sound, but they tended to be less powerful than some later Gibson humbuckers. In late 2005, I bought a Gretsch Historic Series G3161 which had fairly generic pickups which many people called Gretschbuckers. Any number of people bought Gretschbucker equipped guitars, but then realized that the Gretsch sound they desired just wasn’t possible with these pickups. I used to call my G3161 my “stealth Byrdland”, because it sounded great for Jazz. The Gretsch forums would have numerous instances where someone would buy a Gretschbucker equipped guitar and, start out happy, but quickly became disappointed when they couldn’t get a Brian Setzer sound. Frequently, they would swap in different pickups, and/or trade up. If you put flat wounds on one of these sorts of instruments you will get absolute mud. I used D’Addario XL round wounds on my G3161, and it was very dark.

My point is simply that powerful humbuckers and flat wound strings are a combination that many players will not find pleasing. Many of the generic humbuckers that come on inexpensive guitars, at least historically, had a lot of winds, cheap ,magnets and weren’t designed for much more than making a signal. Pickups like these can mask a bad guitar design, in the same way that turning the tone control down can mask the flaws in a poorly mixed recording, but at the cost of a good overall sound.

While I use Thomastik flats on most of my guitars, I don’t use them on all of my guitars. I use Thomastik Jazz Bebop, round-core, pure nickel round-wound strings on some guitars, and on my Jaguars, I’ve been using hex core, nickel-plated-steel wound strings (think D’Addario XLs or Ernie Ball Slinkies). I intend to try some Pyramid Fusion Flats on at least on Jaguar, and probably some Thomastik Jazz Swings, once I have the setup dialed in and don’t anticipate having to de-string them for setup work.

[vistavision]

AVRI Jazzmasters shipped with a set of flats in the case for +20 years. JM pickups + Fender amp + flatwounds = Leo's intention.
I played in an instrumental rock band in the early 00's. We used mainly our bandmate's gear which was all vintage and he used Pyramids on everything. I played his '58 refin JM through a pre-CBS blackface and that is the sound.


One of my fav practical jokes was when a guitar shop co-worker (vintage spec guy, he used flats) special ordered an AVRI JM. It came in on his day off, and typically we'd leave it to be opened by the employee. Well, I opened the box at the bottom, slid out the case, and put in a fake letter from Fender (Fender logo from invoice + MS Word + copier) that politely stated that if the flatwounds were used it would void his warranty, "tension issues" and what not. Total BS. Ended it with "Enjoy your new Fender instrument!" and put the case back in the box. I'm off the next day and I hear he wigged out but the service coordinator was off, too, so my co-worker had to cool his jets for another day. I broke it to him on my next work day.

This happened in 2004. He's still my friend, and the letter still hangs in the shipping room.

[BoringPostcards]

I’ve tried them just once on a Mustang and didn’t get the appeal. To me, they sounded a lot like dead roundwounds, and they felt a lot tighter to me. That being said, I haven’t tried any higher end flats, just the Fender branded ones.
I’ve been meaning to try them again on a JM or Jag, but haven’t gotten around to it.

[Fiddy]

Plus, they last forever, and I HATE string scrape

I like them too. To the untrained ear, they sound dull and lifeless, but that's only because most people associate string changes with getting bright steel strings.

[jakeisjake]

I like flats. I used to use them on every guitar (including Jazzmasters), but my kids don't like them. So, I have one guitar with them (Right now a Gretsch 5620) and I use half rounds on the rest.

It's a good compromise.

[JVG]

I intend to try some Pyramid Fusion Flats on at least on Jaguar, and probably some Thomastik Jazz Swings, once I have the setup dialed in and don’t anticipate having to de-string them for setup work.

The Fusion Flats are weird! I currently have them on a Tele - they have a strange feel, not smooth like most flats, but very rough (especially at first). Initially they were too bright, but quickly mellowed and i really enjoy the sound of them.

I checked them out under magnification, and it seems that the wrap overlaps by a small amount each time around the core, rather than sitting flush like most flat wounds.

Just thought it worthy of mention, so you know they are not ‘normal’ flats.

[jorri]

I like them, nice way of mellowing highs. I don't think they do anything for setup issues.
There's more of a percussive sound and if they are the bright type like daddarios then a bit of a clang that's just very different to rounds.
They are more concise and could potentially be clearer for discerning chords depending on the situation for lack of chimy harmonics and growl, although thus lack the agressiveness to really 'rawk' even with fuzz to me.
Ah, i need another guitar to put some on, because i feel like i need both sometimes, but i play louder things atm.
Again, i have some jazz background, as in its the style i learned, i don't blues, everything is a weird voiced chord etc. so i am in that /phylum/ of guitarists even though i am a shoegazer haha, that's just the foundation of my technique i think though.