There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.
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tamerofbantha
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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by tamerofbantha » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:02 am

here it is.

possumkiller's post on headstocks @ strat-Talk

that "hump" he is talking about (to the left of the low E tuner). i have noticed that before on both late 60s and early 70s telecasters.

according to what he found, it seems the big headstock is longer past the nut than either musikraft or FMIC is currently producing them.
algeriet wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:46 am
johnnysomersett wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:24 am
Oh, i was just being intentionally contrary/cheeky as I'm a habitual piss-taker. Drives my wife up the wall!

I am curious though, would you buy one if it was half the price? Like, would you forgive that small detail if it was only 1300EUR?
The million dollar question...

Ngl, while I'd ought to spend 2599€ on something else, like a Volvo 740 or something, if it was to the same level of standard as far as reissues go as the AV65 (single line Klusons aside hehehehe) , I think GAS would've overcome my senses and I'd try and work something out. Now all I can do is wait until we get to see it up close, but the likelihood of me getting one is 1/3 instead of 2/3, and that last third is only because of finances lol. Hbu, are you actually hyped about it and considering setting aside some beans for one this fall/winter? A custom colour metallic B&B has always been my jam so the LPB would have been the obvious purchase for me. And to answer your question, at 1300€ I'd buy it, glue a piece of wood to the headstock, add a veneer on the backside, saw the right shape out of and refinish the headstock lol.

Actually that question goes out to every miserable person still reading my posts: are you gonna get the guitar Y/N?
tamerofbantha wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:29 am
does anyone know if the 66-67 big headstock shape of a strat is identical to that of a 66-67 big headstock JM? there was a kerfuffle over @ strat-Talk about this and one of the members over there pointed out some interesting discrepancies in the dimensions (stuff even the Fender custom shop missed, for example).
Woah, please link to that, sounds like just my kind of people who are out there comparing CBS headstocks between two models during the same years. 🍆
My take? I don't think so, but I am prepared to be enlightened. 🙏

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by algeriet » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:21 am

tamerofbantha wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:02 am
here it is.

possumkiller's post on headstocks @ strat-Talk

that "hump" he is talking about (to the left of the low E tuner). i have noticed that before on both late 60s and early 70s telecasters.

according to what he found, it seems the big headstock is longer past the nut than either musikraft or FMIC is currently producing them.
Interesting, gonna definitely check this out. With that said, if Fender just released the AVII66 with their reissue CBS headstock, that eventually is not perfect according to that Strat Talk discussion, I'd still be more than happy. But alas, they ain't...

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by JSett » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:28 am

algeriet wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:46 am
Hbu, are you actually hyped about it and considering setting aside some beans for one this fall/winter?
I am hyped about it, yes. I think it looks really cool and I'm sure it'll be of high quality (maybe not AV65 level, I dunno. But I briefly had an AO60s Tele and that thing was flawless...like, almost custom shop level quality - but a Tele is pretty simple). Is it 2.5k exciting? I dunno. Certainly not with the colours they're offering. I might find it hard to resist if, a year or two down the line, they start talking about other more interesting colours.

But, my opinion is skewed as I already have a '66 reissue in a cool colour. Also with an incorrect headstock size :D and I fucking love it to death.

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by Embenny » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:47 am

johnnysomersett wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:24 am
I am curious though, would you buy one if it was half the price? Like, would you forgive that small detail if it was only 1300EUR?
Personally? Without hesitation. Fender AV/AO instruments are extremely high quality, great-playing guitars. At that price, nothing could touch the price/performance/looks package of that LPB with accurate sized blocks and a painted headstock.

The cheaper a guitar is, the less demanding we should all be. But when it's pricey and marketed as a vintage reissue, I can understand why people get nitpicky.

After all, if all you want is accurate blocks and the colour of your choice, partscasters are the way to go. You can do a vintage-style nitro B&B build for less than one of these Fenders, so what you're paying for with the Fender are A) convenience, B) brand name, C) resale value, and D) vintage accuracy.

If you're like me and know you'd need to drop pricey mods into it anyway, A) becomes less of a factor. If D) is less of a factor, then you're down to brand name and resale value as the main advantages over a custom build.

Also, as we just learned regarding the strats, the CBS headstock increases resonance, so clearly these guitars will be dead-sounding pieces of crap. That's much more of a tragedy than the exact permutation of fretboard inlay and headstock size having failed to overlap in 1966, so let's all hang our heads and mourn the failure of this model before anyone has even touched one.
johnnysomersett wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:28 am
But, my opinion is skewed as I already have a '66 reissue in a cool colour. Also with an incorrect headstock size :D and I fucking love it to death.
Firstly, that is an amazing guitar. But secondly, I think younger/more recent Offset converts might not be able to understand just how intense the B&B gas has been for some of us in the past. Getting a proper B&B neck - let alone on a colour you liked - has historically been a massive challenge. There were the elusive Japanese JM-66B models, which didn't come in a whole lot of colours, could be really tricky to track down in many parts of the world, and had all the usual foibles of hardware and electronics, and there were the vintage CBS models.

That was it. But now we have Squiers with blocks, Mexican models with blocks, and finally USA models with blocks.

Come to think of it, my own B&B obsession has led to my dream JM build that I'll be posting about as it comes together. It was kind of a driving factor in my pursuit of Offsets. The first was finding a matching headstock in a cool colour - my OLB (aged LPB) '93 Jaguar filled that need back in 2002. But those properly-sized blocks eluded me until a couple years ago when I picked up a vintage Coronado neck (spoiler alert for my build thread).

So I think that might explain why some people feel so passionate about this headstock inaccuracy - they, like me, might have spent literal decades hunting for the right B&B Offset, and they might have spent all that time coveting photos of nice B&B guitars, all of which would have had the larger headstock.

So I think it's silly to dismiss those people as nerds looking for something to complain about (not accusing you personally, just a general comment about some of the attitudes we've seen in this thread). Block inlays are one of those things that can irrationally mean a lot to Offset fans. Almost no parts manufacturers proportion them properly, and almost no new models have featured them since the original production run. I don't blame anyone for feeling like this is "close, but no cigar."

I'd probably care more if I hadn't already bought all the parts for my own B&B build, because an off-the-shelf LPB with B&B and matching headstock in nitro is something I wished for for maybe two full decades. But like you, having already found a way to scratch that itch really takes the pressure off this model to live up to any specific expectations.

If I come across a used LPB one for a good price or as an attractive trade offer some day, I probably won't hesitate to pick it up, inaccurate headstock or not. But I definitely won't be lining up to pay for a new one at this price point.
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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by JSett » Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:29 pm

mbene085 wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:47 am
That's very well broken down (and more typing than I could ever manage) and makes total sense.

This guitar of mine is in fact one of those elusive JM-66B's that I bought in '08 to scratch that itch from my teens of actual CBS JM's passing through my possession (I've had 3 in the 'before' times circa 1999-2000, one Sunburst, one Olympic white - likely a refin - and a CAR one...all beat to hell, slightly-to-badly broken and badly set up as I didn't know what I was doing with them). Blocks are my favourite. I wish every guitar had them. Hell, I'd trade my '64 Jag for a later one with blocks in a heartbeat regardless of the loss in value! I inhabit the same world as you all with the seemingly irrational B&B adoration.

That JM-66B cost me about £800 new I think but I've probably sank 3x that over the years into modifying and repairing it (including a brutal headstock break). I'm a habitual modifier like yourself and many others on here. It didn't take long for me to rid it of the CAR though, that curse follows me everywhere.

I was happy to see, whilst simultaneously unhappy (because of the prices), the semi-explosion of custom colour offsets from pre-CBS and CBS eras popping up during covid due to the sudden rush in interest and value. It seems a lot of them were simply hoarded away by collectors/investors/shops just waiting for the right time to liquidate. There definitely are way more out there than could have been expected...it's just a shame everyone wants 10k for them now :fp:
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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by Embenny » Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:00 pm

johnnysomersett wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:29 pm
There definitely are way more out there than could have been expected...it's just a shame everyone wants 10k for them now :fp:
Exactly. The vintage models are definitely inaccessible to most due to price. And those JM-66Bs have shot up massively in price as well, to the point where buying one, refinishing it, and replacing the pickups will easily cost you more than one of these brand new '66 reissues.

So the supply has never met the demand for nice block inlays. Up until now the options have basically been Musikraft necks, JM66Bs and vintage models, the latter two having shot up massively in price to the point of not being relevant to most. And we all know what happens when the guitar world encounters unobtanium - its pursuit becomes emotional and intense.
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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by Powdered Toast Man » Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:51 pm

johnnysomersett wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:29 pm
mbene085 wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:47 am
I was happy to see, whilst simultaneously unhappy (because of the prices), the semi-explosion of custom colour offsets from pre-CBS and CBS eras popping up during covid due to the sudden rush in interest and value. It seems a lot of them were simply hoarded away by collectors/investors/shops just waiting for the right time to liquidate. There definitely are way more out there than could have been expected...it's just a shame everyone wants 10k for them now :fp:
The collector hoarding is gross. Anyone recall the news last year (or maybe 6 months ago?) that Casino Guitars was talking about on their channel how that collector in California had his STORAGE LOCKER broken into and over 200 vintage guitars - mostly offsets - stolen. The STORAGE LOCKER which he apparently only visits once a year to check on. Now, I hate when a musician's gear gets stolen because these are creative tools - but am I a bad person for not feeling bad at all that this wealthy guitar hoarder got robbed?

I swear to god it didn't get really bad until about 3 years ago when the guitar youtubers started talking about what a great vintage bargain that offset Fenders still were. Then it was like all of a sudden the collectors turned their gaze to them and started hoovering them all off the market and prices went bananas.

There's no such thing as an accessible vintage model now. I don't know why but people are even paying $10,000+ for 1970 and up Fenders. It boggles the mind.

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by Embenny » Thu Sep 29, 2022 3:32 pm

Powdered Toast Man wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:51 pm
The collector hoarding is gross. Anyone recall the news last year (or maybe 6 months ago?) that Casino Guitars was talking about on their channel how that collector in California had his STORAGE LOCKER broken into and over 200 vintage guitars - mostly offsets - stolen. The STORAGE LOCKER which he apparently only visits once a year to check on. Now, I hate when a musician's gear gets stolen because these are creative tools - but am I a bad person for not feeling bad at all that this wealthy guitar hoarder got robbed?
It's pretty awful to relish in the misfortune of others, especially since you rarely know the full story.

Also, that particular guy was quite thoroughly discussed.

He isn't some oil baron hoarding guitars, he's an older musician who went through a recent divorce. Among the stolen guitars was a vintage Tele he had toured across the world with and played hundreds of shows.

It sounded like the guitars ended up in storage for a few years because he sold his house (during the divorce) and moved to a condo across the country or something, and hadn't decided what to do with them yet. For all we know, the finances of his divorce might not be settled and taking the guitars with him might have had financial consequences for him.

People get so caught up in these narratives of rich collectors playing keep-away that they don't stop to consider the human side of it. There's no such thing as "deserving" a guitar, and the fact that the guy toured globally as a professional guitarist shouldn't change anything, but in any case it would be hard to imagine someone more "deserving" of their guitars than a professional musician.

I've moved around, I've faced major life events, and I've 100% ended up in scenarios where some nice guitars didn't get used for a few years. Should I have had them seized and placed in more deserving hands?
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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by MrShake » Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:06 pm

That's an interesting tangent about collector's and hoarding. People have all different situations, and some of them ARE greedy pricks. But it's funny to realize that what I care about the most with collections like that, wherever and whatever they are, is that it makes my musician's heart sad that those instruments sit there silent.

But about these new ones, phew, I'm so grateful my wife decided I should shell out for my dream guitar in '08, and I got my AVRI '62.

These new price indicators are making my eyes bleed. I'm not saying whether they're worth it or not, just that prices on "top tier" off-the-rack US-made Fenders has doubled - DOUBLED - since then.

But I hope people who buy them love them

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by JSett » Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:22 pm

mbene085 wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 1:00 pm
Exactly. The vintage models are definitely inaccessible to most due to price. And those JM-66Bs have shot up massively in price as well, to the point where buying one, refinishing it, and replacing the pickups will easily cost you more than one of these brand new '66 reissues.
100%. I've seen two of them out in the wild for sale over the past 2 years, both on FB marketplace, both OCR. I think the JM sold for £1600 and the Jaguar maybe £1200 (which wasn't too bad a deal I guess during covid). I think they were limited to 500 units outside of Japan too so will never be ubiquitous on the used market.

Out of curiousity I just roughly totalled-up what I've spent on it over the years on pickup swaps, refins (it's had two), repairs, etc - plus initial purchase - over the last 14yrs of ownership and it's, coincidentally, ~£2650....the same price as one of these new models!

If I was to buy an AVII66 then the very least it would get is a Mastery bridge and, with the £ being worth sweet fuck-all right now, that'd bring it close to a 3k guitar.
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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by daemon » Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:43 am

johnnysomersett wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:22 pm
100%. I've seen two of them out in the wild for sale over the past 2 years, both on FB marketplace, both OCR. I think the JM sold for £1600 and the Jaguar maybe £1200 (which wasn't too bad a deal I guess during covid). I think they were limited to 500 units outside of Japan too so will never be ubiquitous on the used market.

Out of curiousity I just roughly totalled-up what I've spent on it over the years on pickup swaps, refins (it's had two), repairs, etc - plus initial purchase - over the last 14yrs of ownership and it's, coincidentally, ~£2650....the same price as one of these new models!

If I was to buy an AVII66 then the very least it would get is a Mastery bridge and, with the £ being worth sweet fuck-all right now, that'd bring it close to a 3k guitar.
I just happened to stop into a pawn shop that I'd always passed by and found one of those JG66Bs about 8 or 9 years ago. Took me a while to figure out exactly what it was, but it was a very nice guitar. It was in my ever-rotating-guitar-slot, though, so I ended up selling it a year or so later. One of the few on my "why did I not keep that" list.

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by GreenKnee » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:04 am

I bought a JG66B in sunburst brand new when I was about 18, it was my dream guitar back then. Played it for a good few years and then sold it to a friend as by then I was up to about 6 Jags and its weak Japanese pickups squealed like hell with distortion.
I also wish I'd have kept it now, but my friend still loves it so it's not far away at least.
I got it from Richtone here in Sheffield when it was just a tiny little shop that was appointment only. I felt like royalty going in there to try it out and plugging it in through all the different amps that I could never have afforded then.


Edit:
Found a photo of it next to an old Mustang that our very own HNB restored! Bought it from HNB on shortscale.org
The photo's metadata says 10th October 2010, and by then I'd slapped on a Seymour Duncan JB in the bridge and a black pickguard.

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Plus some more shortscale offsets that have all come and gone over the years, nice to see them again though
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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by mekhem » Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:11 am

MrShake wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:06 pm

These new price indicators are making my eyes bleed. I'm not saying whether they're worth it or not, just that prices on "top tier" off-the-rack US-made Fenders has doubled - DOUBLED - since then.
If the new offsets are $2400-$2500... You are saying that the buy new price of the AVRI 62 in 2008 was $1200?

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by rbrcbr » Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:23 am

algeriet wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:46 am

Ngl, while I'd ought to spend 2599€ on something else, like a Volvo 740 or something...
Where are you finding 740s for 2600 Euro? the vintage volvo market has absolutely exploded here, the prices are absolutely fucked right now. I wanted to get into another 90s 240 and the prices are through the roof for cars with 200k, 250k miles on the odometer

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by MrShake » Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:55 am

mekhem wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:11 am
MrShake wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:06 pm

These new price indicators are making my eyes bleed. I'm not saying whether they're worth it or not, just that prices on "top tier" off-the-rack US-made Fenders has doubled - DOUBLED - since then.
If the new offsets are $2400-$2500... You are saying that the buy new price of the AVRI 62 in 2008 was $1200?
I'm not sure what the standard retail price was everywhere, but I got mine at GC for $1300, I believe. There wasn't any particular sale, though I think a sales rep may have found a price match discount or something from another retailer, but yeah, ordered new at the store, then shipped direct to me. I remember because it's easily the most I've ever spent on a piece of gear, probably twice over.

And naturally, I wouldn't expect them to stay that price forever. It just seems like a rather drastic increase, even accounting for inflation, but again, people said the AV65 were a step up, so I guess I'd presume these new ones to be that AV quality.

That said, I've never played one I preferred to my '62 AVRI, but that's just subjective, I think the pickups weren't for me.

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