What's the current noise regards noiseless? Pg5 Jag & JM review

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.

Hey, you, sssshhhhh!

Kinman
13
57%
Brandonwound
1
4%
Lindy Fralin
3
13%
Other
6
26%
 
Total votes: 23

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Embenny
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Re: What's the current noise regards noiseless?

Post by Embenny » Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:04 am

Yeah, I've been called out by name as well so my opinion is no secret.

It's just one of those cases where the saying, "buy once, cry once" applies. Yeah, they're expensive. Yeah, they really are worth it. Yeah, I've held off buying multiple sets myself because of the cost.

The reality is that for Jazzmasters and especially Jaguars, they're the best (and for the latter, only) game in town.

I bought my Jazzmaster set used like Larry, which made it more palatable. The Jaguar pickups I had to buy new because they simply don't exist on the used market.

I like to think of it this way - they cost about the same as buying a set of Fralins or whatever, discovering they don't sound like a Jazzmaster, selling them and taking a hit on the used price, then buying a second set of pickups that won't make you as happy either. They also take less time and cause less aggravation.

They're not the only good pickups out there by any stretch, but they're the only ones that are both noiseless and preserve the unique character of the Jaguar and Jazzmaster.

I do think some other companies have done good work on noiseless Strat pickups and the like, but nobody has nailed Offset pickups like Kinman. So, frankly, I'd rather buy something like a Zexcoil strat pickup and hide it in a JM cover than buy a non-Kinman noiseless pickup. It wouldn't sound the same but it would at least sound like a nice noiseless Fender tone of some sort.
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Re: What's the current noise regards noiseless?

Post by Larry Mal » Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:13 am

mbene085 wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:04 am


I like to think of it this way - they cost about the same as buying a set of Fralins or whatever, discovering they don't sound like a Jazzmaster, selling them and taking a hit on the used price, then buying a second set of pickups that won't make you as happy either. They also take less time and cause less aggravation.
This is exactly what I'll be doing. I mean, I bought the Brandonwounds for a couple hundred, hoping against hope they were as good as the Kinmans, they weren't at all, I sold them for a hundred dollars.

I didn't save anything.
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Re: What's the current noise regards noiseless?

Post by Larry Mal » Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:17 am

sal paradise wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:04 pm
I found the MXR Smart Gate the best for AC15 & Jag/JM hum reduction. It’s also pretty damn good for mid-high gain feedback control.
When I was in audio engineering school, the question of "what's the best way to deal with noise" came up.

The answer is, don't have it in the first place. There is no way of removing noise from the rest of the signal that does not have its own drawbacks and compromises. There is no magic in the world, in this case, there's only damage control.

Since the guitar is the first part of the signal chain, I strongly recommend that if you don't want noise anywhere else down the signal chain, then don't output the noise from your guitar in the first place.

You don't want to try and fix a problem with noise, you want to make sure there is no noise in the first place.
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Re: What's the current noise regards noiseless?

Post by sal paradise » Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:23 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:17 am
sal paradise wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:04 pm
I found the MXR Smart Gate the best for AC15 & Jag/JM hum reduction. It’s also pretty damn good for mid-high gain feedback control.
When I was in audio engineering school, the question of "what's the best way to deal with noise" came up.

The answer is, don't have it in the first place. There is no way of removing noise from the rest of the signal that does not have its own drawbacks and compromises. There is no magic in the world, in this case, there's only damage control.

Since the guitar is the first part of the signal chain, I strongly recommend that if you don't want noise anywhere else down the signal chain, then don't output the noise from your guitar in the first place.

You don't want to try and fix a problem with noise, you want to make sure there is no noise in the first place.
Well, yeah.

I just happened to have a noise gate on my board from my days of playing in heavy bands, and it solved the problem for me easily.

Plus I reallly like my Creamery JM pickups ;D
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Re: What's the current noise regards noiseless?

Post by JSett » Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:28 am

I just don't think I can justify $450 on a pair of pickups I might not like. I've never tried noiseless pickups in any form and might hate them. Maybe I'll order both and pretend to myself they were the just same price :D
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Re: What's the current noise regards noiseless?

Post by Embenny » Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:57 am

It's funny how much of a mental game these things can be.

Like, if I gave you two Jazzmasters to play. One cost $2250 and sounded amazing and was silent to boot. The other cost $1800, played just as well, but had terrible pickups you knew you'd have to replace.

It would be easy to justify paying the $2250 for the one that was already great. But, if you had that $1800 guitar already, paying $450 for the nice noiseless pickups suddenly seems much more expensive.

All in all, for a decently expensive guitar to begin with, it's not an exorbitant cost. As a percentage, it's only high when compared with other pickups. And like Larry, I've concluded that they simply do something other pickups don't.

I'm not a pickup snob by any means. I just got finished installing a $40 set of used fidelitrons in my Guild, and love them. I've bought several $150 sets of D'Urbano Firebird style pickups, and love them.

But nothing in those price ranges exists for JMs and Jags in the noiseless realm. Kinda sucks, but it beats the zero options we had 10-15 years ago.
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Re: What's the current noise regards noiseless?

Post by JSett » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:07 am

Yeah, I mostly just use Creamery in everything to be honest, and those are pretty fairly compared to others. You're right about the mind games these things can play though...I don't even bat an eyelid at spending that money (or vastly more) on other superfluous things but for some reason question it with the actual main sound producing component of my main guitar?

Fuck it. I'm ordering them
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Re: What's the current noise regards noiseless?

Post by Telliot » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:39 am

ryanthellama wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:33 am
If you’re open to another option that’s not pickups or a noise suppressor/gate, I’ve heard really good things about the Electro Harmonix Hum Debugger. I don’t own one myself but I’ve tried a friend’s and it worked impressively well.
I had one of these and didn’t like the weird metallic overtones it added to my signal.

I’ve been looking at the Kinmans for awhile now and can’t decide which set to get. I want a late-50s JM sound rather than the later spiky 60s sound, so I presume that takes the SurfMasters out of the equation. Oh, and I also tend to play clean with some reverb, vibrato, or tremolo. I can’t decide if the Fat- or ThickMasters are more appropriate for what I’m looking for. Any thoughts?
The cool thing about fretless is you can hit a note...and then renegotiate.

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Re: What's the current noise regards noiseless?

Post by JSett » Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:43 am

Telliot wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:39 am
I’ve been looking at the Kinmans for awhile now and can’t decide which set to get. I want a late-50s JM sound rather than the later spiky 60s sound, so I presume that takes the SurfMasters out of the equation. Oh, and I also tend to play clean with some reverb, vibrato, or tremolo. I can’t decide if the Fat- or ThickMasters are more appropriate for what I’m looking for. Any thoughts?
I've just ordered the FatMasters. From what I could tell the Thickmasters were more like hot P90s/verging on PAF and the Surfs were quite spiky...so I went with what appears to be the 'middle' option. I'm sure Mike or Larry can give more input seeing as they actually own some and aren't just speculating like me.
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Re: What's the current noise regards noiseless?

Post by Larry Mal » Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:52 am

Telliot wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:39 am


I’ve been looking at the Kinmans for awhile now and can’t decide which set to get. I want a late-50s JM sound rather than the later spiky 60s sound, so I presume that takes the SurfMasters out of the equation. Oh, and I also tend to play clean with some reverb, vibrato, or tremolo. I can’t decide if the Fat- or ThickMasters are more appropriate for what I’m looking for. Any thoughts?
I own Thickmasters and Surfmaster, but if I was going to have only one set, it would be FatMasters.

They describe the Thickmasters as "dark and syrupy", which is actually pretty accurate, and the Surfmasters are your typical very bright Jazzmaster pickup.

I bet the Fatmasters are a great pickup right in the middle.
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Re: What's the current noise regards noiseless?

Post by Larry Mal » Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:53 am

johnnysomersett wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:07 am


Fuck it. I'm ordering them
Good call. Trust me, I'm cheap, and I would be the first one to tell you that something else was as good. God knows I tried to pay less.
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Re: What's the current noise regards noiseless?

Post by marqueemoon » Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:43 am

My Oceana Jrs have very hot P90s and are noisy AF. I like the sound so much I have decided to just live with it and step on the tuner or roll the volume down.

IMO the only time this actually matters is on a recording and there are more sophisticated plugin tools for dealing with noise there and you can position yourself however you need to during tracking.

Anyway, I think J Mascis uses Kinmans in his backup for places with noisy power.

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Re: What's the current noise regards noiseless?

Post by Embenny » Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:34 pm

marqueemoon wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:43 am

Anyway, I think J Mascis uses Kinmans in his backup for places with noisy power.
He actually uses Thickmasters in all of his Jazzmasters now, and has for a few years.

I've got the FatMasters and find them to be incredibly versatile. They can get bright enough to do what you want a vintage style JM to do, while still being thick enough to do more than that, if it makes sense.

Also, they can definitely be pushed in one direction or the other through electronics. I like 1M pots in my Offsets, and I find the Fatmasters bright enough to still sound "traditional". I'm sure if you did an A/B with vintage style pickups and the same amp settings, you'd find the Fatmasters to be thicker, but with appropriate amp settings you can really do whatever you want a Jazzmaster to do with them.

Also, when you order them, be sure to specify you want blank pickup covers. They don't fit standard covers and you probably don't want the Kinman logo. Mine came with the logo (used), and it really irks me. I'll order a new set of covers whenever I order another set of pickups, but I'm definitely not paying for shipping from the Phillippines just to eliminate a logo.

I've been thinking of wet sanding the covers, but I don't know if I'll end up making them look like crap in the process.

When I talked to the CS rep at Kinman, they steered me away from the Thickmasters since I like Fendery tones more than PAF or Gibson ones. They said that the Thickmasters essentially have a P90 voice but with the playing feel of a Fender (since they have alnico rods).

J uses P90 guitars in the studio all the time, so that's probably why he likes the Thickmaster in all his Jazzmasters now. A P90-ish Jazzmaster would be right up his alley.

I'd probably try them if I got another Jazzmaster, because it sounds like they'd be more of a contrast from the Fatmasters than I'd get going the other direction (Surfmasters). Especially since I use 1M pots, which Kinman advises against. It seems he likes warmer tones out of a Jazzmaster. Based on my experiences, I suspect the Fatmasters with 1M pots probably don't sound much less bright than the Surfmasters with 250k.

I'm glad the number of OSGers with Kinmans is growing. Few winders have given Offset noiselessness as much thought and effort, as evidenced by the fact that there is literally nobody else who has designed a noiseless Jaguar pickup. Everyone is basically like, "we have noiseless Strat pickups, aren't those basically the same? Just use that."

As someone who has played Jaguars as their primary instrument for two decades now, I really appreciate that, though I appear to be in the tiny minority of people who both play Jaguars and really care about noise.
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Re: What's the current noise regards noiseless?

Post by garyptaszek » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:21 am

what about going back to the Wide Range JM pickups?

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Re: What's the current noise regards noiseless?

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Sep 23, 2022 11:34 am

johnnysomersett wrote:
Thu Sep 22, 2022 7:03 am


What were your thoughts on the Brandonwounds? They are right in the pocket of the $ I was looking to spend and sound relatively accurate on the online demos I could find
I'd love to tell you that I liked them, but I found them to be kind of harsh and uninspiring. Frankly they reminded me of a less noise version of the MIJ Jazzmasters that the guitar started with.

That wasn't terrible, but it was a very limited sound. I wish I could say otherwise.
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