So, when do Performers, Jag-Stangs, Supersonics and Toronados qualify as vintage Offsets?

[Embenny]

I totally get why this site originally had the definition of a vintage Offset as being "pre-1980" - the originals were all pre-CBS and CBS, and when this forum started, 1980 was "26 years ago."

But Kurt's Custom Shop Jag-Stang was made 27 years ago - the same age today that a 1979 guitar was when OSG started out. In another year or two, the original production run of Jag-Stangs and Supersonics will be as old as "vintage Offsets" were in 2006, and they were original designs (though with the twist of having a Squier decal in the case of the SS).

Toronados are 2 years behind them (1998 NAMM debut vs 1996 for the Jag-Stang/SS). They'll be 26 years old in under three years.

And let's not forget a guitar that slipped way past those birthdays without fanfare - the Performer, whose 1985 birthdate excluded it from the "vintage" club in 2006, but is an original design that is as old today as the Mustang and Electric XII were in 2006, and older than the Bronco, Compstang, and Starcaster were.



The Performer Bass is also an older design today than the Mustang Bass and Musicmaster Bass were in 2006.

So, what makes a vintage Offset a "vintage Offset" these days? Did it have to be made in the US? Did it have to be designed by Leo (in which case Starcasters and MM basses are out as well)? Did it have to exist before FMIC did?

Or is it more along the lines of, "an original Fender design with an Offset waist whose original production run is over 25 years old?"

It feels wrong on an emotional level to consider the Jag-Stang to be entering vintage territory, but I saw an ad for a '96 that called it "vintage" and after my initial scoff, I paused and thought, "Oh shit, it kind of is, isn't it?"

I saw them in stores when I bought my first electric guitar at the age of 12 in 1998, and I grew up firmly in the "FMIC reissue" era, when Boomers had laid down the law that pre-CBS was the only "proper vintage" Fender.

But a decade later, prominent Gen Xers had been using CBS guitars and amps for so long (largely from being priced out of pre-CBS gear) that they had managed to get the market to accept that Silverface amps and CBS era guitars were "proper vintage" as well, and the number of reissues of CBS guitars and silverface amps exploded.

Is it time to accept that Millennials like myself, who grew up playing MIMs and MIJs due to being priced out of CBS guitars (just like Gen X and CBS/pre-CBS, respectively), now have original designs from our youth meeting "vintage" criteria?

I mean, the Jag-Stang, Supersonic and Toronado have all been reissued multiple times at this point (and have current reissue runs more or less matching their original specs). Are the OG runs vintage, or about to be?

Someone tell me I'm wrong for asking this. Or right. Or that I'm just freaking out because I turned 35 and am seeing teenagers unironically call mid-90's guitars "vintage." This feels like the kind of debate OSG is equipped to handle! We've been training for this moment.

[CivoLee]

1980 is generally thought of as the line of demarcation between "vintage" and "modern" because of the amount of technological innovations that occurred in the early 80s. Plus, both Fender and Gibson went through ownership changes in the early 1980s from CBS and Norlin. They truly did not make them like they used to during that time and a concerted effort was made to start making them that way again. Not only that, but popular music in general had been dominated by guitars/bass/drums and traditional instruments like piano and horns up until then, whereas afterward, synths and other electronic instruments started to take over.

It may be because I'm 39, but I have a harder time thinking of guitars made in the 80s/90s as "vintage" than guitars made in the 50s/60s/70s, because they have too much in common with instruments made today construction-wise. Plus, a Fender Jaguar from 1979-80 was part of that guitar's original run, rather than a reissue. I think there is a difference between things that are vintage vs. things that are simply old.

Frankly, I think whomever placed that ad for a "vintage 1996" Jag-Stang was full of crap. The kids calling 1990s guitars "vintage instruments" wouldn't be taken seriously by collectors/historians, either. There just hasn't been as comparable of a paradigm change between the 90s and today as there was between the 70s and the 80s.

So to answer the question in the thread title, I'd say if/when headless multiscale guitars and basses become the rule as opposed to the exception when it comes to stringed instruments.

[Ceylon]

Cynically, vintage just seems more like a sales/collector's term without any real meaning anyway, so if the market is now beginning to label 1996 Jag-Stangs vintage and collectors buy into it, I'd say they will be soon. If those CBS 1979 25th Anniversary Strats can be regarded as vintage I see no reason later Fenders couldn't. Pre-1980 seems like a very sort of arbitrary cutoff-point to stick with forever.

The Fender Performer I absolutely hold as a vintage guitar. It was short-lived, remains extremely rare and the first ones will be 40 years old sooner or later. They're quality instruments and Fender Japan during that era is already loved and well-regarded by players.

[Domm]

For most collectible hardgoods/products 30 years or older is considered vintage. I’m not saying I agree but seems to be the measuring stick most collectors use.

[JSett]

There's always going to be many many viewpoints on this and I doubt there'll ever be a consensus but the boundaries can't really shift too much.

In the old furniture and car worlds there's relatively firm lines drawn in the sand. In cars, 1980-1995 is generally considered as a 'retro' vehicle, 1940-1980 would be a 'classic car' and before that is 'vintage'. For home goods/furniture again it's defined at about 1980 too. 50s/60s/70s is vintage or 'mid-century' and before that is antique.

I had a 1938 Harmony archtop. I called it an antique, not vintage and I definitely wouldn't call a guitar made after 1980 a vintage instrument.

[DeathJag]

About fifteen years ago I heard U2 on the oldies radio station. This is like that. Oldies?!!!! Vintage?!!!

[Ceylon]

To muddy up the discussion a bit more I think desirability plays into it a lot too. A Teisco Sharkfin ET-460 would probably be considered a vintage guitar by many. One of those one pickup Teisco tulip-shaped guitars is more likely to be labeled just a quirky old guitar by everyone except a seller and an enthusiastic buyer.

[UlricvonCatalyst]

One of those one pickup Teisco tulip-shaped guitars is more likely to be labeled a quirky old guitar by everyone except a seller and an enthusiastic buyer.

And said enthusiastic buyer might be quite dogmatic about it being "vintage" as a way of rationalising their misguided overspend on something which in objective terms isn't that special.

[Ceylon]

One of those one pickup Teisco tulip-shaped guitars is more likely to be labeled a quirky old guitar by everyone except a seller and an enthusiastic buyer.

And said enthusiastic buyer might be quite dogmatic about it being "vintage" as a way of rationalising their misguided overspend on something which in objective terms isn't that special.

Precisely

[Embenny]

Oh, I totally agree that "vintage" is tied up in marketing and desirability/value-based concepts as much as age, but that's why I wanted to hear people's perspectives!

I think it's important to check my own biases from time to time - "vintage" instruments included.

I mean, when I was a kid exploring guitar forums and reviews around Y2K, CBS instruments often would be excluded from any "vintage Fender" caché, and even then, it was only early CBS, because Boomers had to begrudgingly acknowledge that Hendrix played a CBS Strat ("but not a horrible bullet truss rod 70's CBS strat!").

But over the course of my lifetime, WRHBs, Starcasters, Coronados, Mustangs, and all manner of 70's Fenders have gone from being regarded as cheap garbage to gaining that vintage mystique.

I think the point made above about original runs is important - I think reissues will always be reissues, even if they become old and more valuable reissues.

But that's also why I mentioned the Performer, Jag-Stang, and Toronado. Those are all original designs. They were reissued. And the original runs are slowly but surely getting a lot older.

I don't buy the "they were made differently before 1980" argument, though. Fenders were always mass-produced. Since 1968, nearly all original runs have been poly.

Yeah, they introduced CNC eventually, but if anything that just made them better. The whole issue with 70's Fenders, Gibsons, and even Martins, was regarding QC. In the case of Fender, things like loose neck pockets and low grade wood were common complaints.

Every Jag-Stang I've seen has a great neck pocket. Toronados, too. And the woods were all a good grade, arguably better than most 70s Fenders.

So, a late-CBS Strat and 90's Jag-Stang were both parts of original runs (one that had evolved in an unflattering direction, in the case of the Strat), they were both mass-produced, they're both covered in thick poly finishes...but the JS is generally made of lighter, higher-grade woods and has more consistent QC and tighter fit and finish.

I'm not seeing a clear advantage in the strat's favour other than being about 15-20 years older, yet it's had a "vintage" label for the last 15-20 years or so.

Doesn't that mean it's time to update our labels?

As was pointed out, when I was a kid in the 90's, the Oldies station played 50's music, the Classic Rock station played 60's and 70's, and you'd hear November Rain on the Modern Rock station. Now, November Rain is on Classic Rock stations and Zeppelin is on the Oldies one.

I acknowledge that electric guitar culture is stuck in the past more than many other corners of pop culture, with 50-70's music and the guitars that made it remaining an overwhelmingly dominant force, but that's gotta give at some point.

Put it this way- the new guitars Boomers saw in action as kids were declared to be "vintage" by the time they were middle-aged. The "vintage reissue" line came out in the 80s, because 1952-1962 had been declared "vintage". By the 90's, it grew to include late 60's models like the Tele Thinline and then 70's style Strats, Tele Deluxe/Customs, etc.

But then it stopped. A full two decades have passed, and even though things like the Starcaster have returned, 1976 is just too recent to earn a place in a "vintage" line - just "modern player" or "classic vibe."

But Gen X is now older than the Boomers were when they first declared 1952-1962 to be "vintage" territory.

Like everything else with guitar culture, time was declared to have frozen, and we shan't acknowledge the 1980s and its newfangled remote-controlled robots and talking teddy bears to be long enough in the past that their contemporary guitars might be considered "vintage."

Granted, the "reissue" line didn't officially have the "vintage" label for its first few years, but for sure by 1990, the 28 year-old '62 Strat had been in reissue mode for 8 years and had an official AVRI designation.

It won't change my life one way or the other to start applying a "vintage" label more liberally, but I think it's interesting to think our way through the various factors that are going into this phenomenon of continuing to celebrate the 50's and 60's, begrudgingly acknowledging the value of the 70's, and then pretending the 80's and 90's were practically yesterday.

I mean, a kid born on the day OSG started would be 11 months away from getting their driver's license. If that kid followed my own path, they'd have been playing guitar for over 5 years by now and would be saving up for their second electric guitar. And, many of the guitars considered "vintage" would be under 30 years old which in this time-shifted case would land in the early 90s. We can't pretend time isn't marching on.

[s_mcsleazy]

About fifteen years ago I heard U2 on the oldies radio station. This is like that. Oldies?!!!! Vintage?!!!

modern rock radio is basically stuff from 1985-2005.

[Embenny]

About fifteen years ago I heard U2 on the oldies radio station. This is like that. Oldies?!!!! Vintage?!!!

modern rock radio is basically stuff from 1985-2005.

The last time I tuned into it, that seemed to be an accurate description

Note: I try to never tune into it, but during my recent move, I had the choice to either use the radio in my U-Haul or listen to the sound of my possessions slowly destroying each other in the back, so I chose the lesser evil and used the radio. I spent a lot of time in that truck.

I didn't really understand how I was hearing GnR on both the modern rock station and the classic rock one...I really wanted stuff that was either newer, older, or just contemporary but not utter shit.

You know things are bad when American Idiot coming on is a relief. When that song/album came out, it was a knife through my heart because, like Weezer or the Simpsons, I wish they just stopped in the late 90s. That album was such cringe to me...they were growing up but were trying to make some sort of generic, angsty political statement without making any statement at all. That was around the time that RATM called it quits, and going from hearing Bulls on Parade and Sleep Now In The Fire on the radio to American Idiot in the span of just a few years broke my teenage heart.

[Stephen_42]

I'd say Performers / Jag-stangs etc. will never really be vintage - at least not in the same way as original run Jaguars, Jazzmasters and Mustangs just because they were the original offsets.

I'd make a Marvel/DC golden age analogy - plenty of brilliant stuff came much later, and much of that is old now, but there's a clear distinction between golden age and silver age comics. (Not to say silver age is worse, just a distinctly less vintage vintage). Late 20th century Fenders are arguably becoming vintage in a silver age way.

Perhaps it's best to just say that "vintage" is a relative term.

[s_mcsleazy]

About fifteen years ago I heard U2 on the oldies radio station. This is like that. Oldies?!!!! Vintage?!!!

modern rock radio is basically stuff from 1985-2005.

The last time I tuned into it, that seemed to be an accurate description

Note: I try to never tune into it, but during my recent move, I had the choice to either use the radio in my U-Haul or listen to the sound of my possessions slowly destroying each other in the back, so I chose the lesser evil and used the radio. I spent a lot of time in that truck.

I didn't really understand how I was hearing GnR on both the modern rock station and the classic rock one...I really wanted stuff that was either newer, older, or just contemporary but not utter shit.

You know things are bad when American Idiot coming on is a relief. When that song/album came out, it was a knife through my heart because, like Weezer or the Simpsons, I wish they just stopped in the late 90s. That album was such cringe to me...they were growing up but were trying to make some sort of generic, angsty political statement without making any statement at all. That was around the time that RATM called it quits, and going from hearing Bulls on Parade and Sleep Now In The Fire on the radio to American Idiot in the span of just a few years broke my teenage heart.

i feel ya. sometimes the CD player in my car acts up so i'm forced to listen to the one rock station i can find and every time it's basically the same pre-2005 stuff. i felt a ray of hope when i heard "new rock rundown" or something to that effect BUT it was just new stuff from old bands...... and when i say "new" stuff, i mean released in the last 6 months

[Larry Mal]

The problem is that "vintage" is just a terrible term to use with guitars, "vintage" by definition implies a certain, specific year and that's absolutely not what the term is used for when we talk about guitars.

A 1970 Stratocaster has the vintage of 1970, for instance.

The world of comic books has a concept that would be far more useful with guitars, you have the "golden age" which Wikipedia is telling me is from 1938-1956, followed by the silver age, bronze age and modern era.

Science fiction uses similar concepts, with the "golden age" there being those very early pulp science fiction stories from before it was really taken seriously as a genre, and so on.

My dislike of the guitar industry is probably so well known that I don't even need to diatribe about it here, you're very welcome, but suffice it to say that I consider "vintage" to be nothing more than a bullshit marketing term.

And not the way you think, either! It was mentioned above that both Fender and Gibson came under new ownership right around when "vintage" became a thing, and both of those companies marketing the shit out of their new "vintage" accurate guitars which was supposed to conjure up a golden era that Boomers would have quickly related to, and they were without question the driving force in guitar sales up until very recently if they still aren't.

It also had the effect of invalidating the previous companies' output, which meant that the new Fender and Gibson were not competing with as much used inventory.

If you don't believe me, well, let's think of Guild... that's an old company, but for the most part, their guitars are just old and collectible guitars that don't really get to be considered "vintage" quite as much as Fender and Gibsons are.

Also remember that age does not equal value, it's purely Boomer nostalgia: that's why a 1959 Les Paul will sell for tens of thousands of dollars more than a 1940's Gibson arch top will, for instance.

So, to answer your question, Mike: these guitars will become vintage when someone is able to persuade you that their age increases their value, same as ever, based on your nostalgia for the thing in question.