'65 AV Jazzmaster with mysterious Chinese Lion.

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.
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Fiddy
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Re: '65 AV Jazzmaster with mysterious Chinese Lion.

Post by Fiddy » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:48 pm

This is a Lion's Club signature model.

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Re: '65 AV Jazzmaster with mysterious Chinese Lion.

Post by Fiddy » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:51 pm

jfromel wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:48 pm


It's straight up Oly White thin skin nitro (if this is a re-fin the person who did it should consider doing Van Gogh forgeries) The matching HS is original, I got this from Fender earlier today based on the S/N... scroll to the bottom of the spec sheet - Oly White - matching HS.
I'd say it's a refin too. Sounds like you want it to be something it might not be.

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Re: '65 AV Jazzmaster with mysterious Chinese Lion.

Post by jfromel » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:32 pm

tribi9 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:51 pm
jfromel wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:48 pm


It's straight up Oly White thin skin nitro (if this is a re-fin the person who did it should consider doing Van Gogh forgeries) The matching HS is original, I got this from Fender earlier today based on the S/N... scroll to the bottom of the spec sheet - Oly White - matching HS.
I'd say it's a refin too. Sounds like you want it to be something it might not be.
I don't want it to be anything other than what it is, but I do want to know what it is. If it's a refin (which I doubt based on my experience and observations) that's cool but why would someone go through all the effort to strip all the paint, carve the image, fill the image then just cover it back up to the point it's almost invisible with a factory quality refin? Andy is wrong that the matching HS is not original and the only comment supporting a refin so far is the colour balance looks off, and it does because I changed the contrast on the pic. But if the answer was clear it wouldn't be a mystery:)

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Re: '65 AV Jazzmaster with mysterious Chinese Lion.

Post by Fiddy » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:37 pm

Well, Fender wouldn't have released it with a graphite lion etched on the back and if they had, they would have mentioned it on the reply you got.

Doing a good factory refin is not that difficult unless you are MJT. :D

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Re: '65 AV Jazzmaster with mysterious Chinese Lion.

Post by andy_tchp » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:56 pm

OK. I'll happily stand corrected on the matching headstock aspect.

As for the rest of it, how could I (or anyone else) have possibly known you'd altered the images in such a way? :fp:
jfromel wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:32 pm
that's cool but why would someone go through all the effort to strip all the paint, carve the image, fill the image then just cover it back up to the point it's almost invisible with a factory quality refin?
The custom carving would've hugely devalued the guitar had it been left as it was when being put up for sale. Like, halved the value.

People do stupid shit all the time. Poor decision making, drugs, alcohol, questionable modifications to musical instruments.

At least whoever repaired it did a decent job.
tribi9 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:37 pm
Doing a good factory refin is not that difficult unless you are MJT. :D
Harsh... but true :)
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Re: '65 AV Jazzmaster with mysterious Chinese Lion.

Post by sunburster » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:36 pm

Pretty weird if someone at Fender put that etching on the back of the guitar, but everything else checks out. Matching headstock is correct, bright white Olympic White finish is correct, neck pocket looks good, etc.

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Re: '65 AV Jazzmaster with mysterious Chinese Lion.

Post by jfromel » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:44 pm

tribi9 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:37 pm
Well, Fender wouldn't have released it with a graphite lion etched on the back and if they had, they would have mentioned it on the reply you got.

Doing a good factory refin is not that difficult unless you are MJT. :D
I did the rubbing of the graphite to expose the image AFTER I BOUGHT IT. I tried first with tracing paper and a #6 graphite bar and #2 and got nothing, I took the #2 directly to the guitar and the image was there! I finished it up with #6 and some erasing around the edge. 1 squirt of guitar polish and the Lion would go back into hiding. Looking back I think I could have gotten the image with some method similar to lifting finger prints, I still might try something like that and put the lion back in it's cage, right now I have to wear a black shirt when I play it, which is fine because most of my shirts are black.

I think it would have been possible to emboss the image after the guitar was finished but the depth of the image is so shallow and so perfect across the image that would take a CNC with a burring tool (smooth round ball) and the rotor off at slow speed, or possibly a large press with precision pressure to put in the image and have the finish intact. But that takes tools you cant just pick up at Home Depot and I haven't seen any You Tubers doing such things with their Shapeoko CNC and I have seen a lot of them because I love my Shapeoko. I don't know how many refin people have a precision industrial press or CNC's in their shop (But Fender has both of those in spades!). Image depth is about .03mm. I am going to take it to a couple local guru's and get their opinion on refin. I have yet to be fooled but it may well be a Chinese clone or a refin, I'll report back after I get some other hands on it who know more than me. I figure if the body was sanded to remove an image then refinished it would not be as thick as other JM's so I measured the body thickness with digital calipers on the upper bout by the neck joint and it is exactly 41.34mm (1 5/8"), which is dead on spec for a JM. Refin or not it's still a mystery and the best JM I have owned or played and if it's a Chinese clone I have a ton of orders to place with them!

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Re: '65 AV Jazzmaster with mysterious Chinese Lion.

Post by Fiddy » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:56 pm

I don't think its fake, but i do think the lion didn't happen at the factory... But ive been known to be wrong. So. Yeah..

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Re: '65 AV Jazzmaster with mysterious Chinese Lion.

Post by andy_tchp » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:11 pm

tribi9 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:56 pm
I don't think its fake, but i do think the lion didn't happen at the factory...
Agreed, the body doesn't look fake at all.

I (still) think shrinking/sinking filler (they would not have 'sanded to remove an image' as suggested) and a paint job touch up after a remorseful owner/'artist' realised they needed to sell the thing is more plausible than someone spending hours setting up CNC toolpaths and designs on the Fender shop floor to lightly embed a 'mysterious' design in the back of what's otherwise a bog ordinary mass production guitar.

It probably would've ended up featured here had it not been repaired: "Why did you do it? Why did you do this thing to me?"
"I don't know why we asked him to join the band 'cause the rest of us don't like country music all that much; we just like Graham Lee."
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Re: '65 AV Jazzmaster with mysterious Chinese Dragon.

Post by Ceylon » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:10 am

jfromel wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:51 am
Image
Assuming it has the original pickguard in this image, that wear around the truss rod access cutout looks, well, poorly cut to me. It might be the image, it might be wear from someone trying to adjust it without taking the neck off, but the cut looks too, well, rugged.

EDIT: I'm not sure that would mean anything one way or the other.
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Re: '65 AV Jazzmaster with mysterious Chinese Lion.

Post by Beebe » Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:10 am

That's awesome! Is it possible the guitar was laid down on something that made an imprint? Like maybe a book with raised metal artwork on the cover? Or maybe a book was put in a case with it?
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Re: '65 AV Jazzmaster with mysterious Chinese Lion.

Post by lamp » Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:54 am

Have you put the serial number into the Fender registration website?

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Re: '65 AV Jazzmaster with mysterious Chinese Lion.

Post by jfromel » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:55 am

lamp wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:54 am
Have you put the serial number into the Fender registration website?
No but I called them yesterday, gave them the SN and they sent back the build spec according to my SN, their reply is posted earlier with the specs, sadly Foo Dog Lion hiding in Finish was not listed as a feature.

I did find out a bit more. The person I got it from got it used at Big Box music store in HI so I'm going to call them and see if they can help solve the mystery of how and when the lion was put on the guitar. So I'm at least the 3rd owner. Hopefully the person who traded it in at GC was the original owner. I'm not holding my breath but but maybe I'll find something out.

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Re: '65 AV Jazzmaster with mysterious Chinese Lion.

Post by bessieboporbach » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:20 am

It just looks like somebody rested it on something and it made an impression in the nitro?

Not sure why this is a big mystery.

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Re: '65 AV Jazzmaster with mysterious Chinese Lion.

Post by ThatGuyOverThere » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:19 am

bessieboporbach wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:20 am
It just looks like somebody rested it on something and it made an impression in the nitro?

Not sure why this is a big mystery.
But it’s a FUN mystery. I’m getting a kick out of this journey, both here and on TGP. Please do post what you find out!

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