Fender "Panorama" Tremolo System -- American Performer II Jazzmaster

[Ricey]

Darren Riley now also has the Panorama pop-in bar available as a seperate item for $33. I just ordered one. I bought the Panorama tailpiece a couple of months ago when he was selling them without the bar and have been successfully using an American Ultra Strat pop-in bar. Will compare and contrast the two bars for you all when the Panorama bar arrives.

[Vendetagainst]

So I received my Panorama and... it won't fit in the current route. That's probably because my JM is from Warmoth, and they may use a slightly different routing template. What's happening is that due to the large block that holds the trem arm, that corner of the trem won't move upwards to align with the current screwholes. The other side (that's identical to the traditional style trem I have) aligns pretty much perfectly. Nothing some sanding won't fix, but it's still annoying. On the plus side, I can corroborate that the Panorama feels super solidly built. The current trem I have is this cheap pot-metal thing I got from Warmoth, and that with the arm is still lighter than the Panorama without the arm.

EDIT: Actually, I also have another possibility in mind, but it's contingent on the fact whether the trem is supposed to be pushed up to the very front. Is it supposed to be? The holes for the trem were drilled in by Warmoth. Maybe they drilled the holes too forward, so it's not the route that's wrong, but the screwholes, and that's why the block won't fit. I kinda hope that isn't the possibility, because sanding down a corner is a lot less work than drilling new holes. Plus, since my body is a soft wood, there's an ugly looking indentation from the old trem. Given that the route is the same as a traditional route, I'm guessing this is the case.

EDIT 2: Screw it, I'll just sand it down. It doesn't really matter much if the route is too big, as long as the screw holes align. I would imagine Warmoth wouldn't mess something this major up, especially if it won't fit with the pretty-much-identical-to-Fender cheap trem. The ground cable also makes things harder to fit. I ordered some sandpaper online (and a black trem arm tip, the tip is a screw-on cream which totally messes with the aesthetics of my guitar.) Would love a second opinion from y'all tho. (After checking, I confirmed it. It's the ground wire that's messing things up. I'll have to find a new ground point, or recess a channel for the cable, especially hearing the trem arm block scrape against the corner of the trem route.)

[Ricey]

I received my Panorama pop-in bar from Darren Riley today and just popped it in. I had been using a pop-in American Deluxe bar temporarily until the Panorama bars became available. The pop-in ends are not identical on the two bars. The Strat bar works, but the Panorama bar is a more snug fit. Also, inexplicably for my feeble mind, I can dive down an additional step with the Panorama bar. I can now dive the E note at the 12 fret on the low E string of my Classic Player Jaguar HH all the way down to between F# and G (9-10 half-steps) - similar to Ryan's comparison video. With the Strat bar, I could only dive down the Panorama 7 half-steps to A. The weird thing is, the Strat bar was not bottoming out on the pickguard. There is still room between the tip of the bar and the pickguard at the point where the Panorama spring bottoms out! I can't figure out why the bar makes a difference in the Panoramas travel, but I am very happy!

[Gordon]

Do you have comparison pictures, by any chance?

[Ricey]

The shorter bar is the Strat bar:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/offpK4oTnQHmURW16

You can see that the insert on the Strat bar is longer, which may explain why the downward travel is more restricted.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ya2o9aNVsdeNdGVh6

Here is the Panorama Bar inserted into the collet:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/LoSbngw3FyYdzVMs9

You can see that it is a bit too long on my CP Jag. I will probably try to cut it down a bit and have the tip re-threaded.

I also previously posted a pic of the Strat bar inserted.

[Gordon]

The shorter bar is the Strat bar:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/offpK4oTnQHmURW16

You can see that the insert on the Strat bar is longer, which may explain why the downward travel is more restricted.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ya2o9aNVsdeNdGVh6

Here is the Panorama Bar inserted into the collet:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/LoSbngw3FyYdzVMs9

You can see that it is a bit too long on my CP Jag. I will probably try to cutbit down and have rhe tip re-threaded.

I also previously posted a pic of the Strat bar inserted.

Thanks! I had missed the Strat one posted earlier... Which I do prefer to the JM arm.

[Ricey]

I also take back what I wrote earlier. Now, with the proper bar, I can do a reasonable take of the "Eruption" divebombs.

[ryanthellama]

I just installed a Panorama on my 60th Anniversary JM and while I'm definitely able to pull up more than I used to, I can't dive any deeper than a normal JM trem. Does anyone have any guesses as to what I might be doing wrong? On the high E at the 12th fret, it bottoms out at a half step, and on the low E 12th fret, I can do 5 half steps (one deeper than my CP Jag with stock trem). It almost feels like it's hitting something and I'm worried that the trem cavity is too small for the collet to fully move, but I'm not sure.

[GreenKnee]

I just installed a Panorama on my 60th Anniversary JM and while I'm definitely able to pull up more than I used to, I can't dive any deeper than a normal JM trem. Does anyone have any guesses as to what I might be doing wrong? On the high E at the 12th fret, it bottoms out at a half step, and on the low E 12th fret, I can do 5 half steps (one deeper than my CP Jag with stock trem). It almost feels like it's hitting something and I'm worried that the trem cavity is too small for the collet to fully move, but I'm not sure.

A normal JM trem should go wayyy deeper than that. If I push hard enough I can get the trem bar to touch the pickguard and the strings are Floyd Rose floppy. Definitely sounds like you're bottoming out on something here

[Veitchy]

The price on Daren Riley puts it within swinging distance of the Mastery OMV, so subject to availability we may start seeing these on more partscasters. For my money I'd be more interested in trying out the Panorama first. The Mastery is meant to dive a bit deeper than an AVRI though.

[Larry Mal]

The Mastery is meant to dive a bit deeper than an AVRI though.

It does.

[timtam]

I just installed a Panorama on my 60th Anniversary JM and while I'm definitely able to pull up more than I used to, I can't dive any deeper than a normal JM trem. Does anyone have any guesses as to what I might be doing wrong? On the high E at the 12th fret, it bottoms out at a half step, and on the low E 12th fret, I can do 5 half steps (one deeper than my CP Jag with stock trem). It almost feels like it's hitting something and I'm worried that the trem cavity is too small for the collet to fully move, but I'm not sure.

That's a big difference between high and low E. Is it stopping on the high E before the end of the arm hits the pickguard ? The first thing to exclude is indeed a blockage in the cavity, although it seems a somewhat unlikely explanation for that string difference.

The earlier mention of vibrato arm length suggests a discussion of the role of the arm in vibrato frequency range might also be useful (or an overly nerdy deep-dive, depending on your perspective !). As Leo's patent diagram for the original vintage trem design shows (below), the resting arm angle varies with the resting angle of the trem plate underneath, which is usually set to the parallel, neutral, "easy in-out" position of the lock button ( https://offset.guitars/the-goodies/sett ... lo-system/ ).

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2972923A/en

But as @Ricey's pic of the (longer) Panorama and (shorter) strat arms shows nicely (the patent diagram does not), the arms are not at right angles to their short shafts, but are angled upwards in relation to those shafts. There does not appear to be an appreciable difference in short-shaft lengths.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO ... 52TmdlOG1n

If that angle were not the case - and thus if the arm rested parallel to the guitar body - a longer arm would hit the pickguard earlier in the trem's downward rotation range than a shorter arm, thus limiting the frequency drop. But the upward angle of the arm in relation to its shaft (combined with a neutral/parallel resting position of the trem screw/plate), means that the end of a longer arm should be higher above the guitar's body in the resting position than a shorter arm. And thus when depressed, its angular range until it hits the body should be greater than a shorter arm. Thus its frequency drop should be greater. And unless the collet is not resting vertically (eg if the trem screw is too tight or too loose), a longer arm should remain at much the same high resting position above the guitar, regardless of its rotation position around the collet.

But it's still hard to see how any of that could explain such a big difference between the downward pitch range for low and high E in your guitar. The pitch range for every string can never be equal (string/bridge/trem mechanics do not allow that), but they should be more similar. I'm assuming that the (slightly?) altered Panorama mechanics* cannot explain your problem. In any case, if you have excluded a blockage as responsible for the apparently limited range of your trem, looking at the resting arm setup would be the next step.

*A discussion of how the altered plate mechanics of the Panorama trem achieves a greater frequency range - compared to the vintage-design trem - awaits someone dissecting it and doing a proper analysis.

[ryanthellama]

Here's my resting trem position (locked and resting are set the same). When I dive, I can't even get the tip of the arm parallel with the body, much less touch the pickguard.


I've checked that there's no blockage in the cavity and it seems to be stopping in the same place when I just move it by hand outside of the guitar. Here's a few photos of what it's looking like when I depress the arm all the way and when it's resting/locked. I'm still not seeing what's causing the issue. In this video from 60 Cycle Hum, he's clearly able to touch the guard with the arm, and I'm nowhere near being able to do that. It feels like my spring is too compressed in resting position, but I don't know how to fix that without not being able to use the lock properly.

[gibs]

Here's my resting trem position (locked and resting are set the same). When I dive, I can't even get the tip of the arm parallel with the body, much less touch the pickguard.


I've checked that there's no blockage in the cavity and it seems to be stopping in the same place when I just move it by hand outside of the guitar. Here's a few photos of what it's looking like when I depress the arm all the way and when it's resting/locked. I'm still not seeing what's causing the issue. In this video from 60 Cycle Hum, he's clearly able to touch the guard with the arm, and I'm nowhere near being able to do that. It feels like my spring is too compressed in resting position, but I don't know how to fix that without not being able to use the lock properly.

Idk, looking at the block for the collet, it looks like when the spring is fully compressed, the collet block drops down lower than the spring. So I’m wondering if the block is making contact with the route at the bottom, quite possible it’s not deep enough. If you can’t press the arm against the pickguard, that’s a sure sign that your not getting the full travel.

[ryanthellama]

Idk, looking at the block for the collet, it looks like when the spring is fully compressed, the collet block drops down lower than the spring. So I’m wondering if the block is making contact with the route at the bottom, quite possible it’s not deep enough. If you can’t press the arm against the pickguard, that’s a sure sign that your not getting the full travel.

I can’t say for certain, but based on how the arm looks and feels both on and off the guitar, I think it’s moving the same amount whether it’s mounted or not. I tried to show in my pics, but even unmounted the arm still doesn’t go down enough that it would make contact with the pickguard.

Edit: I checked the depth of the cavity with a ruler and then measured the trem when depressed and I should definitely still have room.