Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

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Larry Mal
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:42 am

Feel pretty strongly about that post, I see!
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:49 am

Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larsongs » Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:43 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:42 am
Feel pretty strongly about that post, I see!
It would be a shame for the OP & others who are interested in getting a great Acoustic Guitar to be misinformed by those who have had bad experiences with mostly lower end Versions. Those Guitars are geared more toward Entry, Budget, Student, Amateurs & Semi Pros who may not be able to afford the higher end Pro Level USA Original Versions.

My Post is for the sake of accurate information..

A Side Note; New Gibson USA & Martin USA Guitars have the best Warranties & Factory Warranty Repair/Replacement Support in the business. If you play long enough you will need them at some point. I have dealt with most all the major Co's at one time or another as I've had a lot of Guitars over the years. Many that I've kept for years & have thousands of hours on them...

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:23 am

Larsongs wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:43 am
Larry Mal wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:42 am
Feel pretty strongly about that post, I see!
It would be a shame for the OP & others who are interested in getting a great Acoustic Guitar to be misinformed by those who have had bad experiences with mostly lower end Versions. Those Guitars are geared more toward Entry, Budget, Student, Amateurs & Semi Pros who may not be able to afford the higher end Pro Level USA Original Versions.

My Post is for the sake of accurate information..

A Side Note; New Gibson USA & Martin USA Guitars have the best Warranties & Factory Warranty Repair/Replacement Support in the business. If you play long enough you will need them at some point. I have dealt with most all the major Co's at one time or another as I've had a lot of Guitars over the years. Many that I've kept for years & have thousands of hours on them...
I was kind of just making fun of you for quoting your own whole post the next day after you made it.

You make good points, although I'm not going to really be able to go along with the concept that the pro level Martins start at the 28 level, since a D-18 is hardly an amateur instrument, and an OM-21 is as pro as it gets.

There are pro level Gibsons under the J-45 in price, I cannot see what is less than professional about my J-15 for instance. And the Gibson acoustic Studio series looks like a great lineup of guitars for the live stage with the thinner bodies and whatnot.

We may not have the same idea of what constitutes a "professional" grade guitar, though.

Regardless, I'll stick to my advice that if you don't know what guitar shape to get, get a dreadnaught. If you don't know what guitar maker to buy, get one of the legends. If you don't know what model to get, think of a legendary artist and find out what legendary guitar they played on their legendary recordings and get that guitar.

Don't overthink it- the research has been done for you.

If you later disagree with any of that, then you will have done the research to know.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by seenoevil II » Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:40 am

Larry, as a Gibson player, what do you make of 2 characteristics:

1. 24.75" scale length on an acoustic. I know that they make electrics slinky and buttery to bend on. But does the slightly slack tension affect playability at all. Say your ability to lean into the strings.

2. I heard the factoid that Gibson to this day uses the 1/18th ratio for fret spacing to even temper when a more precise math constant was discovered and natively used by most brands (including Gibson USA) since the early 20th century. I know they wouldn't keep it if it were causing problems, but how often do you play up the neck of a flattop? So, do things get a little sea sick above the seventh fret?

As for that guild, I'm too sober to be that impulse. Talk to me later tonight.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Thu Apr 09, 2020 12:48 pm

seenoevil II wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:40 am
Larry, as a Gibson player, what do you make of 2 characteristics:

1. 24.75" scale length on an acoustic. I know that they make electrics slinky and buttery to bend on. But does the slightly slack tension affect playability at all. Say your ability to lean into the strings.

2. I heard the factoid that Gibson to this day uses the 1/18th ratio for fret spacing to even temper when a more precise math constant was discovered and natively used by most brands (including Gibson USA) since the early 20th century. I know they wouldn't keep it if it were causing problems, but how often do you play up the neck of a flattop? So, do things get a little sea sick above the seventh fret?

As for that guild, I'm too sober to be that impulse. Talk to me later tonight.
Well, I like the 24.75" on acoustics. Let's remember that Gibson isn't the only people who use that, I can think of offhand that Martin does with the aughts, Taylor uses it on some models, Guild does also. I am pretty sure that scale length came first, and later guitar companies went long scale in order to get more volume out of it, an never ending process with the guitar throughout its history.

But if you are asking me how I feel about it, I like it, there was one drawback I found with the scale length and that was with drop tunings. The 24.75" scale length doesn't work as well for that, so I was still using my long scale guitars for open D and the various D tunings I use (DADGAD, DADEAD, open D). But then I decided to move to medium gauge strings (.13s) and now I have my J-15 in some D tuning I don't remember- DADGAD, I think.

So be aware of that.

Regarding the second issue, well, all I can tell you is that I check the intonation of my acoustics as you do and the other notes also. I replace the saddles and all, so I need to know if maybe they weren't cut right (they are compensated). So I check the harmonic, I check the open string and the 12th fret, and then I play a few notes throughout the neck. But first thing I do is order a bone saddle, I have one on the way already for my new guitar. The saddles Gibson uses are plastic. I don't like plastic.

I don't make a big point of checking past the 12th fret usually. But it all seems good according to my tuner, which isn't a strobe tuner or anything.

Where did you hear this about the fret spacing? I'm a little surprised at that, especially considering that the brand was completely re-invented in the 1990 or so, so why they wouldn't have addressed that along with everything else at that point would be weird. Also, a Gibson long scale isn't actually 25.5", it's something else I don't remember offhand and it's pretty esoteric. I'll try and find it out if I can, but it certainly seems like they cared about fret placement when they came up with it.

And that Guild would be a lot of fun... Super Jumbos are pretty different from what you might think. They aren't as loud as dreadnaughts, for one thing.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by seenoevil II » Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:50 pm

https://youtu.be/0yCLckbp8ps
Here's where I got the factoid. Interesting stuff. Honestly, if your tuning is good up to the 12th, that's good for me.

I remember reading about wonky old Stella guitars with scales up to 26.5" for more power. But they also had bizarre and crude bracing.

As for scale, that's a bummer that it may be an issue for drops. I tend to use light strings on acoustics (I use .12s on all guitars). Although, my todem of guitar taste, m. Malkmus will drop his Epiphone down to C on the reg and makes it work.

And a small note on my antipathy towards Taylors. It's irrational. A lot of it is down to looks. Same reason I don't care for PRS, despite both being superlative instruments. Every singer songwriter type musician I know who goes on to be a hip cool musician with nose peircings and offsets, still has an old Taylor laying around from when their parents bought it for them at 16. It was the cheapest US made acoustic for parents to be supportive of their kids' musical aspirations. An artifact from before they developed hipper taste. Whereas my fully butthurt, jealous self had to buy my own Yamaha. It's a convoluted association and doesn't paint me in a good light, but hey.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:49 pm

seenoevil II wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:50 pm
https://youtu.be/0yCLckbp8ps
Here's where I got the factoid. Interesting stuff. Honestly, if your tuning is good up to the 12th, that's good for me.
That's very interesting, actually. I didn't quite understand all of it on the first listen, but it did get me curious. So, I bought that Peterson Strobe app for my phone, and I'm kind of learning how to use it. If I see any tuning anomalies I'll let you know.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:52 pm

And it may be a little while... I think I'll coincide this with my new guitar, which should be here on Saturday. I'm noticing that the strings on some of my other guitars are pretty dead, making it hard to tell what I'm looking at.

Also, Taylors piss me off these days because they all seem to have cutaways and bullshit electronics cut right into the guitars. I would never want either of those.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Mechanical Birds » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:25 am

I know absolutely nothing about any acoustic guitars and have never cared about owning one, but lately I’ve been feeling the itch and have been trying to find an old Guild that I can find for cheap. I know nothing about them but in my mind’s eye, I see something maybe from the 70s? Anything like that exist for ~$500?

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by barryd » Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:52 am

It would be a shame for the OP & others who are interested in getting a great Acoustic Guitar to be misinformed by those who have had bad experiences with mostly lower end Versions. Those Guitars are geared more toward Entry, Budget, Student, Amateurs & Semi Pros who may not be able to afford the higher end Pro Level USA Original Versions.
I probably should have clarified more that once the neck on my D-15s was fixed it was a top class solid wood guitar and warranty etc was not an issue with a company like Martin - my main point was that I was trying to make was that I would have preferred to have played the guitar more before buying it as the fit and feel didn't click - but online sales return periods are much more flexible nowadays so maybe i am giving a bum steer with my experience - so apologies for muddying the waters

I don't agree that you shouldn't be surprised that a lower end guitar like the 15 series Martin made in the same factory as a D-28 in the US would have flaws or problems - i imagine this would be an affront to their quality control team - 15 series and similar have a lower price point because of tone woods used, bindings, inlays, tuners, nut material bridges etc - and i'm sure they don't get the full love the premium guitars get but at a catalogue price of 1.5-1.9k it's not nothing. To be honest when you get into the price range of 3k+ I would prefer to be spending that on a luthier handmade guitar and we're fortunate that there has been a surge in this craft industry over the last number of years.

Larry I completely agree that if you're jumping into the acoustic world then a Dread does everything and you'll be hard pressed not to find an artist that you admire that doesn't have one in his hand....except maybe Leonard Cohen and that's why I started on nylon strings!

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:04 am

Mechanical Birds wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:25 am
I know absolutely nothing about any acoustic guitars and have never cared about owning one, but lately I’ve been feeling the itch and have been trying to find an old Guild that I can find for cheap. I know nothing about them but in my mind’s eye, I see something maybe from the 70s? Anything like that exist for ~$500?
For around $500, you might consider the D4, sometimes called the D4 All American. Those were barebones entry level Guilds, solid top, with their laminate arched backs and such. The laminate arched back with Guild isn't necessarily them pinching pennies, they always considered it a strength since day one. They arch the back on a lot of their guitars, including their legendary 12 strings, in order to increase projection. The only way to to that, especially without bracing, is to use a laminate.

The good news about the D4 is that they were made up until the 2000s, so you could buy one in very good condition for cheap.

I have never owned one, so be aware of that. I thought about getting one as a guitar I would just leave out and not care a lot if something happened to it.

You might also be able to find a D25, which is also arched back laminate but considerably more upscale in appointments than the barebones D4. Who knows what state you'll find it in, though.

This is where you want to see how much saddle there is over the bridge. Took me a while to learn this. Over a guitar's life, the strings have so much strength that they start pulling the neck up towards the the body- they overwhelm the glue, over the years. It's not catastrophic but you deal with that by pulling the saddle from the bridge and sanding the bottom of it down, et voilà, now you have good action again. But you can only do this so many times (over decades, usually) before you don't have any more saddle to work with, the strings are almost on the bridge, your break angle is shit and the guitar doesn't sound as good as it should, and you need a neck reset. A neck reset is like $500.

So ask for two things: an idea of where the action is, and an image that shows you how much saddle you have to work with. It sucks buying what seems like a good deal and then realizing that you need a neck reset, which happened to me once with a brand new Martin, and also I have a Gibson J-100 that I'm not very far away from (that will be worth it, however).

Also watch out with Guild that they used to be made in Westerly, Rhode Island, so you'll see guitars labelled as Westerly. They made guitars there for like 40 years.

But now they have the "Westerly Collection", a bullshit marketing term, made in Guangdong province or something. They are good all solid wood guitars, though. But watch out for that.

I am not necessarily recommending that you spend $500 on an old Guild, by the way. But if I was, that's how I'd go about it.

I am recommending that you absolutely get an acoustic guitar. I have always been a much more avid acoustic guitar player than I am an electric. I play electric and write songs on it. I don't have a huge passion for it. Frankly, it's always kind of bugged me. You plug it in, and you sit there twisting knobs on your amp and an all these bullshit pedals lying around all over the place trying to get a decent sound out of the thing despite its huge shortcomings, you dial in reverb so that it sounds kind of like something happening in real life and not coming from a box, you add in distortion because the natural tone of the thing doesn't work for you, you add compression so the notes don't die out too fast because otherwise of course they will, you are playing a log of wood painted up fancy, and you just keep doing this over and over with delays and God knows what until you get something that works.

You are basically playing a crude synthesizer at that point. I mean, this is kind of extreme, but still. You can spend so much time chasing "tone" with an electric and when you don't get it, it's awful. The guitar sounds awful.

Get an acoustic, and you play it, and it's all just there. The notes swell and sparkle, the dynamics are like nothing you can get with an amplifier. The sound reverberates around you, lush and rich and beautiful.

Put it into an alternate tuning and whole new worlds reveal themselves to you. You don't know where you are, so you find yourself searching for beautiful new sounds and you find them- it's exhilarating. I never get tired of that.

The guitar is an instrument that has a every broad range of notes to it, which is because it was designed to be played unaccompanied by other instruments, a parlor instrument. This was a real disadvantage when guitar makers needed to make the instrument louder, but it's a huge advantage because the guitar is capable of playing chords, melodies, bass lines and counterpoint all at the same time on the same instrument- you all know this.

Here's an example of what I'm saying, I'm a big fan of John Fahey and here's his "On the Sunny Side of the Ocean". When you listen to this, you'll hear all the different interweaving lines there, there's descending chromatic bass lines and different melodies, imagine that you were hearing an ensemble of some kind playing this. It really wouldn't take much to spread these different musical lines out among a wider variety of instruments, he's kind of making it all happen on the one guitar.

Granted, the electric guitar is capable of all the same stuff, I'm not arguing that one is better than the other, and I'm not saying that I play like John Fahey or anything.

But I am saying that when you play acoustic guitar, it's just you and the instrument and your imagination. No cables, no noise, no knobs, no pedals. And when you make something wonderful happen that way it's simply transcendent, and it's been a huge part of my life.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by barryd » Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:41 am

If the Guild doesnt work out for around 500 dollar range you could look at the seagull/godin/art and lutherie range. All made in Canada, sustainable woods 95% sourced there and all solid tops or spruce or cedar.

My seagull Grand is 20 years old, the solid cedar top looks beautifully aged and sounds great....never let me down or caused trouble and still inspires! They made their name on the S6 dreadnought and reliable affordable 12 strings that didnt bow.

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:10 am

I had a Seagull six and twelve string back in the day. That's a fine choice. I didn't love mine very much, but I later realize that if I had known how to set the guitars up I would have liked them quite a bit more. Back then I used to think you bought an acoustic guitar and that's what you had.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larsongs » Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:45 am

I remember my Dad said to me when I was just out of School. I wish If I told you all the mistakes not to make you wouldn't make them... But, it doesn't seem to work that way. We all have to Live & learn on our own..

Good luck on your quest...

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