Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Mechanical Birds » Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:27 pm

Larry, wow, I can’t tell you how much I genuinely appreciate all of that, thank you so much! You surmised correctly that I know literally nothing about any acoustic guitars, like at all in any way - don’t know the parts aside from universal shit like the nut and tuners and neck and body, etc. like no idea how the bridge is supposed to work or anything so man, that was fucking awesome of you to put so much time and effort into helping me in that one post develop what should be a pretty decent understanding starting from zero. Infinitely cool, man, thank you so much.

Gonna keep an eye and look at a bunch of them and will report in if I make a move on something. I’ve seen several times, probably even you on this very forum, guild acoustics mentioned as a totally serviceable and reliable brand, and out of the gate know I’ll never spring for something super expensive like a Martin or Gibson or something, so it always made sense to me to look there if the time came. Again, thank you for all of that I really appreciate it.

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larsongs » Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:03 pm

Larry, I totally agree Electric Gear is fantastic without a doubt...

But, there is something so amazing when it's just you and a really great Acoustic Guitar. The Sounds they can create are magic. All those beautiful Tones! It's pure & real....

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by seenoevil II » Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:32 pm

Upon rewatching the video explaining Gibson fret spacing, that Gibson Bozeman did indeed change their spacing to 12th root of 2 when they retooled in the 90's. At least, according to this random video I saw. It's Gibson USA who are the luddites. Still though, Galileo's dad, pretty neat (if it's true).

I'm no closer to making a move sans in person demos. However, I do highly recommend the series put out by Toni Palocastro where he demos different guitars with the same songs and the same recording set up in order to reduce variables. It's honestly an amazing resource.

No matter how good QC is at brand A or brand B, I just don't think I can spin the wheel of fate when selecting an instrument that costs more than $1,000. Or, if I take the advice to get a Martin D-28, more than $4,000. There's just too much potential for the one I get being a dud, ca veut dire, a specimen that needs some important correction to meet its full potential.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larsongs » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:17 pm

seenoevil II wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:32 pm
Upon rewatching the video explaining Gibson fret spacing, that Gibson Bozeman did indeed change their spacing to 12th root of 2 when they retooled in the 90's. At least, according to this random video I saw. It's Gibson USA who are the luddites. Still though, Galileo's dad, pretty neat (if it's true).

I'm no closer to making a move sans in person demos. However, I do highly recommend the series put out by Toni Palocastro where he demos different guitars with the same songs and the same recording set up in order to reduce variables. It's honestly an amazing resource.

No matter how good QC is at brand A or brand B, I just don't think I can spin the wheel of fate when selecting an instrument that costs more than $1,000. Or, if I take the advice to get a Martin D-28, more than $4,000. There's just too much potential for the one I get being a dud, ca veut dire, a specimen that needs some important correction to meet its full potential.
A new Martin D-28 Standard MAP is $2899.00. Haggle a little & you should be able get 15-20% off. Not cheap but these are heirloom Guitars. The Materials in these Guitars are best of the best as is their Craftsmanship.. Martin's Lifetime Warranty is second to none. I'd be really surprised if you weren't completely satisfied with an Online purchase from a reputable dealer like Sweetwater, Wildwood, MF or GC.. Some of these websites post pictures, weight & specs of the actual Guitar you're buying. Also, they are brand New in the wrapper Guitars. Including the correct Case, Warranty packet & all the Case Candy. Not some wall hanger that every Tom, Dick & Harry have nicked, dinged & scratched. If by some fluke chance you got the 1 in 10,000 & weren't satisfied, exchange it for another & another until your perfectly satisfied..

I've bought 25-30 new Guitars online from most of the major Retailers. The Retailers have yet to have a problem with returns on the ones I wasn't satisfied with that I did an exchange, buy a different Guitar or ask for a full refund..

I haven't had to do many but almost every time I tried to do an exchange, return or ask for a refund at a Brick & Mortar Store it's been a huge hassle.. Almost every time.. Including GC. I prefer to buy Online from them...

Here's a link to one of the stores with a D-28 Std..

https://www.guitarcenter.com/Martin/D-2 ... -Guitar.gc

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by postchrist » Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:18 am

Larsongs wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:17 pm
I'd be really surprised if you weren't completely satisfied with an Online purchase from a reputable dealer like Sweetwater, Wildwood, MF or GC.. Some of these websites post pictures, weight & specs of the actual Guitar you're buying. Also, they are brand New in the wrapper Guitars. Including the correct Case, Warranty packet & all the Case Candy. Not some wall hanger that every Tom, Dick & Harry have nicked, dinged & scratched.
as someone who has worked for ye old C of G, just a friendly warning that a lot of the call-in and online orders do get sourced off the wall, depending on convenience to the company. call in and specify that you want a freshie just to be safe(or more, to save your time - the return policies are good as they come so hardly the end of the world).

personally i say go through your local mom/pop shop, but i know the corporate big boys can be hard to beat.
lying dog-faced pony soldier.

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larsongs » Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:12 am

postchrist wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:18 am
Larsongs wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:17 pm
I'd be really surprised if you weren't completely satisfied with an Online purchase from a reputable dealer like Sweetwater, Wildwood, MF or GC.. Some of these websites post pictures, weight & specs of the actual Guitar you're buying. Also, they are brand New in the wrapper Guitars. Including the correct Case, Warranty packet & all the Case Candy. Not some wall hanger that every Tom, Dick & Harry have nicked, dinged & scratched.
as someone who has worked for ye old C of G, just a friendly warning that a lot of the call-in and online orders do get sourced off the wall, depending on convenience to the company. call in and specify that you want a freshie just to be safe(or more, to save your time - the return policies are good as they come so hardly the end of the world).

personally i say go through your local mom/pop shop, but i know the corporate big boys can be hard to beat.
Unfortunately, most Mom & Pop Shops are gone.. Unless you live in or near Big Cities.. Even then they're not what most would call Mom & Pop Shops. Further do they actually have a half dozen of each of the Guitars you hope to critically compare? Nope..

Even our local GC doesn't. Lucky to have maybe one or two of the same models. Then one one of them is beat up & you wouldn't buy it anyway...

Further still, IMO, they are the worst place to actually expect to seriously do a critical evaluation of any Guitar...

For many a Guitar like a Martin D28, Gibson J45 or comparable will be Guitars for life & their heirs beyond.. These are serious Guitars for many. Critical in home evaluations & even playing some Gigs are far better than Jammin' on them in the Store..

I managed Music Stores for a few years.... Big & small....

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:29 pm

I should mention that I have another thread here in which I bought a Gibson J-29 sight unseen, it was sent out as "new old stock" and I am somewhat skeptical to think that it was actually that.

There was a crack in the bridge, which I repaired, and I was refunded some money which brings this guitar down to a very good value. I'm not unhappy at all with the sale, but I felt I should acknowledge it since I am a big proponent of buying online (I still am) and should mention the problems I had, such as they were.

And yes, a Martin HD-28 would be a great choice. An instrument that will grow with you over a lifetime, which a Seagull won't. If you get a Martin be sure to get one of the "re-imagined" series, which started around 2012 or so but some models got re-imagined earlier than others (and the HD-28 always had scalloped bracing whereas the D-28 did not until the re-imagining).
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larsongs » Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:08 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:29 pm
I should mention that I have another thread here in which I bought a Gibson J-29 sight unseen, it was sent out as "new old stock" and I am somewhat skeptical to think that it was actually that.

There was a crack in the bridge, which I repaired, and I was refunded some money which brings this guitar down to a very good value. I'm not unhappy at all with the sale, but I felt I should acknowledge it since I am a big proponent of buying online (I still am) and should mention the problems I had, such as they were.

And yes, a Martin HD-28 would be a great choice. An instrument that will grow with you over a lifetime, which a Seagull won't. If you get a Martin be sure to get one of the "re-imagined" series, which started around 2012 or so but some models got re-imagined earlier than others (and the HD-28 always had scalloped bracing whereas the D-28 did not until the re-imagining).
It's true that some good Online New Guitar deals can become even better because of flaws or some deficiency... Those who are skilled can negotiate an even better deal knowing they can fix it..

The caveat for me is, I would only do that as long as I know it won't affect the Lifetime Factory Warranty in the case of a Martin, Gibson or comparable Guitar...

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by seenoevil II » Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:42 am

So, it's a well known fact that Gibson deliberately and drastically inflated their prices in the 80's to transition into a premium brand. That was 40 years ago, but I think it still holds that Gibson electrics are arbitrarily overpriced to protect their brand prestige.

Do you reckon that there is a Gibson tax on their flat tops?

And with most people really only considering Gibson and Martin to be good enough (as exemplified by some comments here), I imagine there's some defacto price fixing happening between Nazereth and Bozeman.

I get that acoustic guitars are tricky things to make, and that the wood stocks are only getting smaller, but 2,3,4,5 thousand dollars for flagship models is just hard to accept.

I got really close this time. I just don't think I'll ever be able to justify it. Maybe I'll lie and say my Yamaha is a 70's red label three serial numbers away from Elliot Smith's and that the guy I bought it from claims that it was used to record Pink Moon.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larsongs » Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:51 pm

seenoevil II wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:42 am
So, it's a well known fact that Gibson deliberately and drastically inflated their prices in the 80's to transition into a premium brand. That was 40 years ago, but I think it still holds that Gibson electrics are arbitrarily overpriced to protect their brand prestige.

Do you reckon that there is a Gibson tax on their flat tops?

And with most people really only considering Gibson and Martin to be good enough (as exemplified by some comments here), I imagine there's some defacto price fixing happening between Nazereth and Bozeman.

I get that acoustic guitars are tricky things to make, and that the wood stocks are only getting smaller, but 2,3,4,5 thousand dollars for flagship models is just hard to accept.

I got really close this time. I just don't think I'll ever be able to justify it. Maybe I'll lie and say my Yamaha is a 70's red label three serial numbers away from Elliot Smith's and that the guy I bought it from claims that it was used to record Pink Moon.
I bought a $399 Epiphone Inspired by Paul Mc Cartney Texan a few years ago. They are Offshore versions of the old & new Reissue USA Texans.. It's a pretty good Guitar. Nice looking, seems well put together & has a nice neck.. The Electronics aren't very good though.. I can tell the materials are cheaper. I understand though. I keep it on a Stand in my Bedroom to grab & play whenever.... I like having it easy to grab if I get an inspiration..

It is nowhere near my Martin D-35 or Gibson J-160E Montana in Materials, Build, Electronics, attention to detail & Finish.. But, the big difference is the way they Sound. They're like Day & Night better sounding Instruments.

You should go & play some cheap Acoustics. Then play higher end Gibsons & Martins.. If you can't see, feel & hear any difference you should go for an inexpensive one..

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by seenoevil II » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:24 am

This thread turned more into a discussion of high quality flat top acoustics and I have no problem with that as that's what I'm in the market for.

However, to address the main thrust of the thread, I don't think that, for me, a potentially multi-thousand dollar purchase of an acoustic instrument is a thing I can do sight unseen.

You all make some compelling points about the generous return/exchange policies of many retailers and the inherent quality of certain reputable brands, but the truth is that I just don't know well enough what I would prefer to make the decision in abcentia.

I'm not well off. This would be far and away my most expensive piece of gear (and very likely my most most expensive possession). It would be a catalyst to potentially pivotting my music from electro indie rock to more acoustic based song writing. Which is all to say that this is a rather important decision for me to make.

I tell you what I'd like to do it I could. If I were committing to a used car amount of money for the budget, I'd like to commission something from a builder. I get kinda skeptical when people wax rapsodic about the quality of factory made instruments. It could be true, but I've also seen a lot of repair videos where the big firms put out instruments with some pretty horrendous flaws (misplaced/under glued bridges, heavily shimmed dovetails etc etc). At the end of the day, these are people with no ownership of the product, doing a devided labor task for an hourly wage just high enough to keep them from going somewhere else. When it comes to traditionally artisanal goods, I think it's reasonable to be skeptical of anything factory made. Obviously, cars, iPhones, and MRI machines are better made in factories. But suits, shoes, and instruments will probably always better made by people whose names go on the label. Will I ever be able to afford these things? Certainly no. That's a whole other can of beans.

Thanks for your input. I learned some stuff. But I think I'm going to wait (possibly forever) to meet the one in person. Now ask me my opinion of internet dating.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larsongs » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:16 pm

seenoevil II wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:24 am
This thread turned more into a discussion of high quality flat top acoustics and I have no problem with that as that's what I'm in the market for.

However, to address the main thrust of the thread, I don't think that, for me, a potentially multi-thousand dollar purchase of an acoustic instrument is a thing I can do sight unseen.

You all make some compelling points about the generous return/exchange policies of many retailers and the inherent quality of certain reputable brands, but the truth is that I just don't know well enough what I would prefer to make the decision in abcentia.

I'm not well off. This would be far and away my most expensive piece of gear (and very likely my most most expensive possession). It would be a catalyst to potentially pivotting my music from electro indie rock to more acoustic based song writing. Which is all to say that this is a rather important decision for me to make.

I tell you what I'd like to do it I could. If I were committing to a used car amount of money for the budget, I'd like to commission something from a builder. I get kinda skeptical when people wax rapsodic about the quality of factory made instruments. It could be true, but I've also seen a lot of repair videos where the big firms put out instruments with some pretty horrendous flaws (misplaced/under glued bridges, heavily shimmed dovetails etc etc). At the end of the day, these are people with no ownership of the product, doing a devided labor task for an hourly wage just high enough to keep them from going somewhere else. When it comes to traditionally artisanal goods, I think it's reasonable to be skeptical of anything factory made. Obviously, cars, iPhones, and MRI machines are better made in factories. But suits, shoes, and instruments will probably always better made by people whose names go on the label. Will I ever be able to afford these things? Certainly no. That's a whole other can of beans.

Thanks for your input. I learned some stuff. But I think I'm going to wait (possibly forever) to meet the one in person. Now ask me my opinion of internet dating.
Making a major purchase like this & going to a Luthier IMO would be more of a concern & little or no recourse.. Good luck with that!

If you were going with a Custom built by Collings, Guild, Martin or Gibson I'd say great!

I know from experience how professional, reputable & high quality Warranty work is performed by Martin & Gibson.

My Martin D-35 has been a workhorse for years. Playing Clubs, Gigs & Recording Sessions Coast to Coast for more years than I can believe. It has been to Hell & back. It deserved to be much better cared for than it was...

Besides all the dings, Knicks & scratches!, One night I left it leaning up against a wall & a huge Painting fell on it & put a hole thru it.. But, It was still playable.I left that way for years. Finally the Pickguard was lifting & the Action seemed too high.. So I called Martin & told them I'd bought new many years ago & it needed some Warranty work. Also, about possibly fixing the hole. I sent it to them & they somehow repaired the hole & you wouldn't be able to tell there ever was one.. I also had it refretted as I probably had a million playing hours on it. I paid for those repairs.

They also reset the neck, repaired Bracing damage by the hole, installed a new Pickguard & reset the Bridge... Inspected & made all necessary adjustments under Warranty at no cost.. The Guitar came back to me in perfect condition..

I have a similar story about Gibson. Actually a couple.... Both Companies IMO & experience are best of the best..

Buying a new Guitar from Sweetwater, MF or Wildwood in particular are top notch Companies that sell great instruments & have excellent Return/Exchange Policies. I've purchased 30 or so new Guitars & always completely satisfied in every purchase.. Even though I did some Return/Exchanges.. I always ended up with fantastic Guitars..

Because, it's a lot of money I only want to deal with the best.....

I wish you best of luck,

Larson

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:09 am

Well, I'm not sure if I gave the impression that I consider Gibsons to be simply "good enough", I consider them to be very, very good guitars. Not "for the money" or anything, they are just great guitars.

As far as a "name brand tax", I also don't see that. For one thing, Gibson and Martin use their economy of scale to put out very good instruments at lower price points, which their more upscale competitors like Froggy Bottom and Collings and such don't and probably can't do. I know I sound like a total fanboy here but I'll especially give the nod to Gibson, because the lesser expensive Gibsons still usually adhere to the basic standards of a gloss nitro coat, and scalloped X bracing and such, while Martin does kind of offer lesser made guitars.

I won't include Taylor in this because their entry level guitars are made in Mexico, and fuck that. So we can't really compare. They are OK guitars.

There aren't entry level Collings or Froggy Bottoms or Santa Fes and shit. Those small operations can't make inexpensive guitars because while they don't have any overhead as far as designing their own instruments or anything, they don't have any economy of scale. It would not be worth it for them to hire the extra staff or increase the size of their factories and buy the extra equipment because they don't have the market. So they cater to a very small group of clientele with very expensive guitars and they tell you that it's better that way, but what can you expect them to say.

Regardless, Martin and Gibson are guitars that have been used by professionals for well over a hundred years. You see them everywhere. You know they are good enough because they are used by musicians in the studio and live all the time. Taylor also. Gibsons are all over country music right now. Martins are perennial. Taylor probably rules house of worship stuff.

I don't know, man. I don't know why you wouldn't just buy a used J-45 or a D-18 (make sure it's made after 2012 for the scalloped bracing) for $1500- 1700 and just call it a day. Find out what one of these classics are all about. If you don't like it you can always sell it for what you paid for it or close to it, chances are you'll love it, and you'll get a lot of experience and learning about what you need in another guitar.

Like, what makes a guitar "better" than a D-18? Are you the person who needs to spend $6k on an upscale imitation of a D-18 to feel better about your guitar?

Or would you be happy enough with Chinese made imitations of a Gibson J-45 used illegally and unethically sourced wood like what Eastman does?

You'll know the answers. But to return to your main point, buy one of those used and take a leap. You will hardly be buying some obscure model and brand that hasn't stood the test of time or anything. If you buy online on eBay or Reverb then you are absolutely in a strong position should you find anything you don't like about the guitar and I know this because I have been dicked around ruthlessly by online customers of mine and I have similarly dicked other sellers around without pity myself.

It's fine. You can do this.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Scout » Sun Apr 26, 2020 7:50 am

After 5 pages it has come back to taking your time, searching locally, especially if you’re in the states, and waiting for a good used solid wood guitar that someone bought and left in the case and now needs some disposable income. They do appear on a regular basis around metropolitan areas and it’s one way to get a $2k guitar for $1k or so. Knowledge is power in this case as is the ability to quickly make an informed decision.

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by seenoevil II » Sun Apr 26, 2020 10:12 am

I love it. It's become me on the diving board, and some of you going "just do it!"

Scout, that's nuts about the warranty work! It gives you the warm and fuzziest just thinking about it. And old workhorse getting a total spruce up on the house.

As for price and quality, that's why I asked. I admit that I have a bit of an anti Gibson bias (despite my undying desire for a 335). They've had more than a few PR gaffs in the past couple decades that have stirred up some antipathy in me. At this point, I'd much rather play a cool Japanese rip off than a Gibson as I think it's more "authentic." But those were all the southern plants- the electric stuff.

I was just curious if you thought the Gibson tax was up in Bozeman too. Price and value are hard things to pin down. I do think there's a bit of a duopoly going on. Kinda like what you're saying with lower price Gibsons, I think the best demonstration that this level of quality can be achieved at much lower price points is Gibson it self. Like is a hummingbird standard really 2k better than the hummingbird studio? 2k worth of lacquer and binding?

But I digress.

Really, my hesitation lies with not knowing what kind would really suit my playing style. Not so much fear of a dud (though that's a thing). Scale length, nut width, and most importantly body size and top material. These are the things I need to try to find out. I do believe that the j45s and d18s are the premier models for what they do well. But I use lots of weird chords and heterophony all over the neck, and to be quite frank, I'm not even sure a steel sting flat top is the way to go for me.

It's for these reasons that I can't do it blind. I really need to sit with instruments. I just don't think any amount of research or reputation can replace hands on experience.

Maybe in the post brick and mortar age there needs to be something like Warby Parker or Amazon fashion. You pick 5 guitars you want to try, they ship them to you, you pick the one you want to keep and send the rest back. The shipping would be horrendous, but this is already an expensive game.


Anyway, maybe I'll get real liquord up, tie a banana around my forehead and pull the trigger as it were. This quarentine is getting really long.
If it wasn't for disappointment, I wouldn't have any appointments.

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