Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by wooderson » Thu May 07, 2020 4:53 pm

seenoevil II wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:50 pm
I'm in the market for a nice acoustic. Something with all solid woods costing at least $1000. The trouble is that there's much less ability to try a guitar before buying it anymore. And in no case is trying a guitar it more important than with acoustics. Really though, this goes for all gear.
[...]
Maybe I'll just go off looks then learn to love whatever it sounds/plays like. That seems like how it was done in olden times. IDK. Thoughts?
Whatever value you place on trying in person, I would say that it's actually much better today than in the past.

Circa 1957, unless you were in a music mecca, it's not like you had dozens of guitar shops to walk into to play dozens of Martins. Much more likely you placed an order for a D-28 and got it several months later and what you got was what you got and made it work.

(Personally, this makes the entire framing of good and bad guitars questionable... and many other things - is there a single song in existence that would have sucked if a D-18 was used instead of a D-28?)

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larsongs » Thu May 07, 2020 9:43 pm

wooderson wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 4:53 pm
seenoevil II wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:50 pm
I'm in the market for a nice acoustic. Something with all solid woods costing at least $1000. The trouble is that there's much less ability to try a guitar before buying it anymore. And in no case is trying a guitar it more important than with acoustics. Really though, this goes for all gear.
[...]
Maybe I'll just go off looks then learn to love whatever it sounds/plays like. That seems like how it was done in olden times. IDK. Thoughts?
Whatever value you place on trying in person, I would say that it's actually much better today than in the past.

Circa 1957, unless you were in a music mecca, it's not like you had dozens of guitar shops to walk into to play dozens of Martins. Much more likely you placed an order for a D-28 and got it several months later and what you got was what you got and made it work.

(Personally, this makes the entire framing of good and bad guitars questionable... and many other things - is there a single song in existence that would have sucked if a D-18 was used instead of a D-28?)
Guess we'll never know the answer as most songs recorded with Martins as far back as Gene Autry & further were played with D-28's or higher... But, IMO, if it was recorded in a quality Studio it probably would've made little or no difference as it's just accompaniment for the Singer & gets Mixed in with the other Instruments...

A good Guitar Player would know the difference the minute you strum the first Chord though...

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Fri May 08, 2020 6:10 am

barryd wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 1:09 am
Larry reckons it's not until 18 series that Martin lift off...
That's not quite what I'm saying, and anyway it's Martin that makes the distinction calling the 18 series and up the "Standard" line. To them, there's a distinction.

The most notable one is that this is where you now find the "re-imagined" bracing, necks, finish, hardware and nut width (although the 17 series has some of that).

Also, this is where Martin has their full gloss finish, the 17 series does not have that, the 16 series often has a gloss top and satin back and sides, etc.

The 15 series is clearly a little different as that is Martin's old school all mahogany guitars, which was always a cheaper alternative and still is. But a totally different guitar.

I did not say that Martin does not make very good guitars at all levels, but the full Martin experience of their most classic tone woods, the legendary models, the full gloss coats, and now the re-imagined bracing and design all start at the 18 series and that's why Martin themselves have that delineation. With all the rest of the models below the 18 series, it's Martin thinking of how to deliver a very good guitar to you at a cheaper price point by reducing the feature set in some way or another. At the 18 series and up, they just make the best guitars that they can at a very high price.

But really, I'm less making a commentary on the quality of the guitars and more trying to offer a way to think about them, it took me a while to learn how Martin organized their very large and somewhat confusing lineup.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larsongs » Fri May 08, 2020 7:07 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:10 am
barryd wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 1:09 am
Larry reckons it's not until 18 series that Martin lift off...
That's not quite what I'm saying, and anyway it's Martin that makes the distinction calling the 18 series and up the "Standard" line. To them, there's a distinction.

The most notable one is that this is where you now find the "re-imagined" bracing, necks, finish, hardware and nut width (although the 17 series has some of that).

Also, this is where Martin has their full gloss finish, the 17 series does not have that, the 16 series often has a gloss top and satin back and sides, etc.

The 15 series is clearly a little different as that is Martin's old school all mahogany guitars, which was always a cheaper alternative and still is. But a totally different guitar.

I did not say that Martin does not make very good guitars at all levels, but the full Martin experience of their most classic tone woods, the legendary models, the full gloss coats, and now the re-imagined bracing and design all start at the 18 series and that's why Martin themselves have that delineation. With all the rest of the models below the 18 series, it's Martin thinking of how to deliver a very good guitar to you at a cheaper price point by reducing the feature set in some way or another. At the 18 series and up, they just make the best guitars that they can at a very high price.

But really, I'm less making a commentary on the quality of the guitars and more trying to offer a way to think about them, it took me a while to learn how Martin organized their very large and somewhat confusing lineup.
As mentioned before, Keep in mind even though Martin makes that delineation the D-18 is a Spruce Top with Mahogany Back & Sides. & different Bracing.. While it may be a very fine Guitar it is unlike a D-28 or higher level Martin... Which have Spruce Top & Rosewood Back & Sides... Also different Bracing & obviously Appointments.. Hence the increased Cost.. They're different Guitars & different sounding Guitars.... Sound being the Key Word..

The D-18 shares more with a Gibson J-45 than it does with a high Line Martin... A Martin D-28 or higher level Model. If you are seeking the High End Martin Sound, IMO, the Mahogany D-18 isn't the Guitar... If you're seeking more of a Gibson J-45 Sound it is...

Which is why most Pro's consider the D-28 the Entry level to Pro Grade Martins.... It's also why they appear on all the Records from the past 75 or more years.....

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larry Mal » Fri May 08, 2020 7:47 am

Larsongs wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:07 am

As mentioned before, Keep in mind even though Martin makes that delineation the D-18 is a Spruce Top with Mahogany Back & Sides. & different Bracing.. While it may be a very fine Guitar it is unlike a D-28 or higher level Martin... Which have Spruce Top & Rosewood Back & Sides... Also different Bracing & obviously Appointments.. Hence the increased Cost.. They're different Guitars & different sounding Guitars.... Sound being the Key Word..

The D-18 shares more with a Gibson J-45 than it does with a high Line Martin... A Martin D-28 or higher level Model. If you are seeking the High End Martin Sound, IMO, the Mahogany D-18 isn't the Guitar... If you're seeking more of a Gibson J-45 Sound it is...

Which is why most Pro's consider the D-28 the Entry level to Pro Grade Martins.... It's also why they appear on all the Records from the past 75 or more years.....
Well, I feel that we are going around and around here, but I also feel I need to address the things you are saying as I don't feel they are quite accurate.

As of now, the D-18, the D-28, and the HD-28 share the same bracing. Previously, the HD 28 was the only one with the scalloped and lighter bracing, now all three of those guitars have that.

Thus, the only difference between the 18 and 28 models is cosmetic, which has no effect on sound, and the body wood, which does.

Mahogany versus rosewood is a very personal decision with neither of them being "better" than the other. That's what I think everyone here needs to keep in mind. I am right now sitting about ten feet away from guitars that have mahogany bodies, that have rosewood, walnut, bubinga and maple and even sapele. Each and every one of them is completely capable of making a beautiful recording or I wouldn't have them- that's why I have them.

I'm honestly not sure what it is you are trying to say. You readily accept that mahogany is a "professional" grade wood since you think the J-45 is professional grade, so then why isn't the D-18 which is exactly the same as the D-28 except that it has mahogany?

You also seem to indicate that only the D-28 is used in recordings? Do I really need to compile some kind of list of all the people that have used the D-18 over the last hundred years or whatever?

And I will emphatically disagree that the J-45 and the D-18 sound particularly close to each other. For one, they are different guitars, with the J-45 being Gibson's slope shouldered Jumbo and the D-18 being Martin's square shouldered dread. They don't have the same scale length. They don't have the same body shape. They don't have the same bracing.

They don't have the same voicing. They don't have the same design philosophy. What Martin and Gibson make those sound like is different on purpose. I have a Gibson J-60, which is built to be very much like an HD-28, and it's an incredible guitar. But if I had you play it, you would not think it was your Martin D-28. Gibsons and Martins just sound different because the people that design them make them sound different on purpose. My Guild D-40 is built to be a direct competitor to the D-18* and it also doesn't sound the same, because the people at Guild designed the guitar to emphasize different frequencies than the people that designed the D-18 did.

You don't have to take my word for it.

I would never tell anyone who was looking for a J-45 that they should just get a D-18 if they couldn't find one. That's really odd to me.



*The D-18 is the most imitated acoustic in history, from low end to the highest end builders in the world, everyone knows the strength of the D-18 dreadnaught/mahogany design.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by seenoevil II » Fri May 08, 2020 8:47 am

I want to thank everyone for their contributions. This thread has been a great success in that it has helped me to make a decision. I'm not at all being sarcastic when I say this. Something I need to specify as:

I may steer clear of the acoustic world after all. I see these types of discussions happen on all sorts of forums, discussion pages, and comment threads. It's a whole culture rich with traditions and beliefs. I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I'm not that interested in it all. At least, not enough to invest the kinds of funds required to feel I was in a good place within acoustic world.

This thread got me thinking about what I actually use steel string flat top acoustic guitar for. That's mostly to write, noodle, record supplementary parts for texture, and occasionally make a little dough at the coffee house. It's just not a big enough part of my music making life to invest that heavily in. And I mean invest time in learning, mental energy in cherishing and desiring certain things etc.

Any acoustic I got would immediately get a sound hole pickup and be run into a cranked 5 watt amp with pedals anyway. And ultimately, my Yamaha does this pretty well as it is.

I don't want to lay it on as I know there are some people who cherish flat tops on here (rightfully so), but I may also be a archtop and/or classical guy when it comes to pure acoustics. Their mellow round tone and increased focus suit my composition style a bit better I think. Which is to say that, ultimately, electric guitar if where it's at for me.

Pretty unsatisfactory, I know (in so far as swaying the op was a concern).

I may "upgrade" my flat top in the future for my own enjoying. But likely with something around $800 with solid woods, just for my enjoyment at home and the occasional acoustic gig.

How I was perceived by others on account of my guitar was a concern of mine going into this. Now, I think people seeing a beat up 13 year old Yamaha with a humbucker gerryrigged into the sound hole sends the exact right message. This guy is from electric land and is only here for a visit.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Larsongs » Fri May 08, 2020 11:09 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:47 am
Larsongs wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:07 am

As mentioned before, Keep in mind even though Martin makes that delineation the D-18 is a Spruce Top with Mahogany Back & Sides. & different Bracing.. While it may be a very fine Guitar it is unlike a D-28 or higher level Martin... Which have Spruce Top & Rosewood Back & Sides... Also different Bracing & obviously Appointments.. Hence the increased Cost.. They're different Guitars & different sounding Guitars.... Sound being the Key Word..

The D-18 shares more with a Gibson J-45 than it does with a high Line Martin... A Martin D-28 or higher level Model. If you are seeking the High End Martin Sound, IMO, the Mahogany D-18 isn't the Guitar... If you're seeking more of a Gibson J-45 Sound it is...

Which is why most Pro's consider the D-28 the Entry level to Pro Grade Martins.... It's also why they appear on all the Records from the past 75 or more years.....
Well, I feel that we are going around and around here, but I also feel I need to address the things you are saying as I don't feel they are quite accurate.

As of now, the D-18, the D-28, and the HD-28 share the same bracing. Previously, the HD 28 was the only one with the scalloped and lighter bracing, now all three of those guitars have that.

Thus, the only difference between the 18 and 28 models is cosmetic, which has no effect on sound, and the body wood, which does.

Mahogany versus rosewood is a very personal decision with neither of them being "better" than the other. That's what I think everyone here needs to keep in mind. I am right now sitting about ten feet away from guitars that have mahogany bodies, that have rosewood, walnut, bubinga and maple and even sapele. Each and every one of them is completely capable of making a beautiful recording or I wouldn't have them- that's why I have them.

I'm honestly not sure what it is you are trying to say. You readily accept that mahogany is a "professional" grade wood since you think the J-45 is professional grade, so then why isn't the D-18 which is exactly the same as the D-28 except that it has mahogany?

You also seem to indicate that only the D-28 is used in recordings? Do I really need to compile some kind of list of all the people that have used the D-18 over the last hundred years or whatever?

And I will emphatically disagree that the J-45 and the D-18 sound particularly close to each other. For one, they are different guitars, with the J-45 being Gibson's slope shouldered Jumbo and the D-18 being Martin's square shouldered dread. They don't have the same scale length. They don't have the same body shape. They don't have the same bracing.

They don't have the same voicing. They don't have the same design philosophy. What Martin and Gibson make those sound like is different on purpose. I have a Gibson J-60, which is built to be very much like an HD-28, and it's an incredible guitar. But if I had you play it, you would not think it was your Martin D-28. Gibsons and Martins just sound different because the people that design them make them sound different on purpose. My Guild D-40 is built to be a direct competitor to the D-18* and it also doesn't sound the same, because the people at Guild designed the guitar to emphasize different frequencies than the people that designed the D-18 did.

You don't have to take my word for it.

I would never tell anyone who was looking for a J-45 that they should just get a D-18 if they couldn't find one. That's really odd to me.



*The D-18 is the most imitated acoustic in history, from low end to the highest end builders in the world, everyone knows the strength of the D-18 dreadnaught/mahogany design.
I am not saying a D-18 isn't a good Guitar.. They are..

I have a 1975 Vintage Martin D-35 (Spruce & Rosewood) & I have a 2000 Gibson Bozeman Masterbilt Solit Top J-160E, which is a Top of the line J Series Guitar (Spruce/Mahogany).. Love 'em both.. But, they sound nothing alike...

I did not say a D-18 sounds exactly like a J-45. I said, they share more in common.. And they do... Tone Wood has everything to do with Sound... Bracing?? It affects what comes out of Tone Wood..

My friend, they sound nothing alike.. I've played numerous J-45's Spruce & Mahogany & numerous Martins of all levels but for this point Spruce & Rosewood.. They sound nothing alike...

Maybe not intentionally, but, I get the impression from all your Posts you think they do.. Respectfully, They do not...

I've never stated many of the Great Records over the past 75 years, or so, were recorded with only D-28's.. I did say D-28's or higher.. Meaning D-35, D-41 & D-45's.... And it's true... But, of course other Brands of Guitars have been used as well.. My comment pertains to Martin's...

The OP isn't the only one reading this Thread.. Others may be in search of a better Acoustic.. Just think the information needs to be accurate & hopefully less confusing...

If the OP is fine with a jerry rigged Yamaha, I'm fine with that too. Many of the Greats had success with cheap jerry rigged Guitars.

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by barryd » Sat May 09, 2020 5:49 am

Larsongs wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:07 am
Larry Mal wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:10 am
barryd wrote:
Thu May 07, 2020 1:09 am
Larry reckons it's not until 18 series that Martin lift off...
That's not quite what I'm saying, and anyway it's Martin that makes the distinction calling the 18 series and up the "Standard" line. To them, there's a distinction.
Sorry Larry I totally get what you're saying and you've described clearly the Martin range.

I suppose what i meant was below theie 'standard' range there's a great range of alternative makers that might offer better value or even tone wood options...

The best guitar is the one you love playing and makes you feel like you're achieving a sound....others might cover their ears but music is more than your tools.

This thread has been great and it is on an offset forum, probably by players in the world the most unloved electric compared to strat tele and LPs...but people here love them anyway for what they are.

If the obly choice was d28 or j45, i might not click with them and end up playing electric!

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by seenoevil II » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:45 am

Another post script:

I finally returned to my local GC and Sam Ash yesterday.

Woof. Ghost town. Granted it was a Wednesday afternoon, but the places were empty. I was the only person in either with a mask. That's fine I guess? I honestly don't even know where I stand on that anymore I'm so burned out from thinking about. I just wear mine almost out of habit at this point. Anyway, the cool part was that I saw a lot of the same old staff working in both stores. So, they didn't lose their jobs through all of this, which is awesome.

The walls were so empty though. Easily only half of their normal inventory. I don't really know what that's about. If it's a strategy to cut down on costs for a while or if it's a supply chain issue.

I did manage to play one acoustic guitar (I didn't have a load of time to hang out). I played the Inspired By Gibson Epiphany J-45 deal. Gotta say I was impressed. I couldn't A B it with a Gibson because they didn't have one to try, but the fit and finish was very satisfying. The sound was really nice, but again, I had nothing to compare it to. Just struck me as a rock solid guitar. And that might be why it underperforms, they might be bracing it heavy and leaving the top, sides, and back a bit thicker to help with durability. But still. I wouldn't kick it out of bed for eating crackers.

Anyway. It was interesting and odd to be back in the shops again. The world really has a vaguely post-war feel to it tight now. I'm almost expecting everyone to have lost 10 pounds from rationing. An exaggeration, I know.

Seems like it's gonna be a little while before I can expect things to be back at full puff.
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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by MayTheFuzzBeWithYou » Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:30 pm

I always was in contact with my local music store and they claimed to have more business than ever... also I gave their luthier a shot and will give him another tomorrow as my bandmate‘s saddle broke last week.

They stock tons of Teles, Strats, Gibsons and D‘Angelicos but only about three to five Fender/Squier offsets.

Delivery times are sometimes and especially now a bit heavy (they/I have been waiting 14+ months for the Vintera Jaguar to show up but still no trace of it) same goes gor not having certain parts stock and if I‘d want to try them (like if a Jaguar Bridge cover would fit my Staytrem) everything would be a custom order...
But: for once they listened to my advice and now the D‘Addario 11-56 strings are their top selling strings! :)

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Re: Buying without trying (or, the death of guitar stores)

Post by Embenny » Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:43 pm

Larsongs wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 11:09 am
The OP isn't the only one reading this Thread.. Others may be in search of a better Acoustic.. Just think the information needs to be accurate & hopefully less confusing...
I agree that information needs to be accurate, but you seem to be either missing Larry's point and/or arguing something different entirely.

Larry said that current-production D-18s and D-28s feature the same bracing, shape, neck, scale length and soundboard. The only differences are the wood of the back and sides, and cosmetics.

A J-45 has a different shape, scale length, bracing, and overall construction as Larry pointed out. That puts the tone-affecting commonalities between the current D-18 & up at "everything but the wood on the back", and the commonalities between the D18 & the J-45 at "they have the same woods."

Construction method is the primary determinant of the tone of an acoustic guitar. This is why any given spruce and mahogany Gibson, Martin, Taylor, Goodall, Olson and Ryan sound nothing alike. Of The woods, the soundboard is where about 95% of wood-based differences come from. Compare a cedar, mahogany, and Sitka spruce-topped guitar from the same builder using the same shape and bracing pattern, then compare three similar spruce-topped guitars but with maple, mahogany, and rosewood backs and sides. The sides are acoustically inert and the back is the only tonal contributer, but even then, construction method determines the degree of its impact because you have rigid-back designs that merely reflect, and vibrating-back designs where wood properties contribute more (Martins are the latter, Guilds are the former, which is why they often used laminated maple in an arched shape).

For an audio analogy, the construction is the source, the soundboard wood is the microphone, and the back wood is EQ. EQ makes a difference, but can't make one mic sound like another, and no mic selection can change what the source you're working with fundamentally sounds like. A ladder-braced parlor cannot be made to sound rich and reverberant by using Moon Spruce and Brazilian Rosewood. An X-braced Advanced Jumbo cannot be made to sound small and boxy by using all-mahogany.

Guitarists regularly fail blind A/B/X listening tests with recordings from same-model guitars where the back and side wood is the only difference, but can reliably tell the difference between a parlor, dread, and archtop.

The old D-28, HD-28 and D18 had different construction methods and sounded quite different. The new ones are built the same with a single material difference and some cosmetic ones. They're far more similar than they are different, and far more alike between them than any of them are to a J-45.

Auditory memory lasts seconds, so we are never truly comparing things if they are not directly in front of us, and vision affects hearing at the level of the brainstem up. Blind A/B and A/B/X comparisons are the only way to get remotely close to objective comparisons (and even then, are far from perfect). I've had the good fortune to have several experiences in my life where I could sit and compare 2-3 dozen guitars from the same builder with A/Bs that differed only in a single variable (scale length, body shape, top wood, back and side wood), and did it blind (in the visual sense, there's no way to blind yourself to the feeling of a medium jumbo in your lap compared to a 00).

Everything makes a difference, including random variation in wood density from board to board. Back and side wood makes the least. It's a consensus among luthiers and my experience bears that out.
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