The difference in TONE between the Jaguar and Jazzmaster

[higgsblossom]

I read somewhere that they're just as good, right? Especially if I replace the pickups, tuners, nut, string trees, strap buttons, neck, bridge, tremolo, body, pickguard and electronics, plus I can get a decal for $25 .

I want the Kurt Cobain guitar but I want it to be vintage accurate. And I want everyone to think that it cost me 1000s of dollars but I want it to be cheap. And I want it to sound great with a lot of distortion but what the hell is a Big Muff?

[ToneFerDayz!!1!]

Off topic, but if any of you use Gearslutz, they have a function whereupon you start a new thread and it looks for keywords in the title and shows you things that correspond with what it finds there. So it you typed in the title of this thread, you would see a list of some other recent threads that have the words "Jazzmaster" "Jaguar" and "tone" in there.

Here's what I got when I typed in "Logic Pro Sound":

That's a great idea, actually, from a UX perspective.

[ToneFerDayz!!1!]

I need to find clips/bands to send the pickup winder to give HIM an idea of what I want my Jaguar to sound like.

What do you want it to sound like? I feel like the scale is going to take care of the major part of the sound, so the question becomes: do you want the pickups bright or mellow? I suppose you already know that there are some interesting threads about the pole heights depending on the years, and this was true for all models of Fender. Early on, some were raised up, then they were all flat, then they were different again. but that generally stopped by the mid 60s. If I recall, there are a few OSG vets who prefer the 62 and 63 pickups. I came across a really special pickup in a 64? But they all sound pretty good to me.

Which is the tough part- there's tons of different sounds and setup variations and pickup styles/configurations that can all affect the sound. So I was kind of secretly hoping this thread would be people posting their favorite Jaguar / Jazzmaster videos so I could get some inspiration instead of it being about message board "etiquette".

[amv]

They both sound exactly like electric guitars.

That might sound like sarcasm, but it's the only useful answer you'll get to this question.

[Telliot]

There are also a lot of YouTube clips that you can reference, the first video is particularly well done.

JM/Jag
JM/Jag
History of the JM
Tele/JM/Jag



And then there's Greg Koch. You either love or hate him, I happen to find him entertaining, and a damn good guitarist.

Jazzmaster
Jaguar

[Embenny]

I don't agree at all that JMs are brighter, because they all vary so much. My TVL JM is way thicker than my Japanese Jag was with the original pickups. My '66 Jag is way thicker than the TVL. My American Special JM is way thicker than the '66 Jag. See where I'm going?

Keep in mind the TVL has 500k pots (ditto for the American Special), not 1megs like traditional JMs. I was referring to 1meg pot comparisons. In my experience, JM pickups with 1meg pots are much brighter than Jaguar pickups. I'm sure there are some exceptions, though.

Also, the AV65 JM pickups are rather thin-sounding as far as JM pickups go.

My point was exactly that though - that there are so many models of JM and Jag and so many variations of the electronics that you can no longer make simple generalizations. If you tell a newbie that JMs are brighter than jags, and he likes that idea - maybe he goes and gets a JMJM without realizing it basically has underwound P90s, and ends up disappointed that he's not getting a jangly Ventures tone.

I appreciate your point re: 1 meg pots, though, as well as the fact that AV65 JM pickups are bright (I agree on both counts).

[higgsblossom]

Does a Jazzmaster sound identical, similar, or completely different then a Jaguar

Same manufacturer, but different scale length, different pickups, different electronics - and you expect the guitars to sound the same? Leo Fender would've had the answer to your question: of course, the Jaguar sounds "better"

[saxjag]

The Jag is reportedly less prone to EMI/RFI noise than the JM. Nonetheless, the Jag will hum a bit, so you're well advised to beef up its shielding with copper tape or an aluminum pickguard.

[OV7]

The Jag is reportedly less prone to EMI/RFI noise than the JM. Nonetheless, the Jag will hum a bit, so you're well advised to beef up its shielding with copper tape or an aluminum pickguard.

Every Jaguar I've ever had has been less noisy than my Jazzmasters.

[Telliot]

The Jag is reportedly less prone to EMI/RFI noise than the JM. Nonetheless, the Jag will hum a bit, so you're well advised to beef up its shielding with copper tape or an aluminum pickguard.

Every Jaguar I've ever had has been less noisy than my Jazzmasters.

Makes sense. My Tele is MUCH quieter than my JM.

[Mad-Mike]

The difference in tone I always put this way....

Jazzmaster
- The attack is a lot more twangy, sharper, clearer, and staccato
- The sustain is a little shorter, but resonance makes up for it
- Clean can have a really "Piano-like" sound depending on what amp you run it through
- The general sounds to me are this...
-- NECK - Warm piano-like delivery, hums along albeit a bit muddy at times when distorted
-- BOTH - That classic plinky 60's surf sound, either that or My Best Friend's Girl by The Cars (which I almost always play out of habit on these things)
-- BRIDGE - Pissed off Telecaster on Steroids, more bass, less mids, more highs, sort of a HiFi Tele of sorts
-- RHYTHM - Very Jazzy when clean, practically that...for lack of better words, "Woman Tone" thing when distorted (sorry...only way to say it)
- I find with a Jazzmaster, I have to use inverted logic when it comes to gain with volume/tone controls, most of the time I actually turn my volume DOWN for solos to beef up the sound and up for Rhythms if I want more gain, because when soloing, that 60 cycle hum from an overdriven amp comes through more when you're playing single note lines than with heavy distortion. I like this inverted logic though because backed down it has a very warm, smooth character to it when overdriven, but when cranked all the way up, it sounds like a pissed off telecaster on steroids - which is great because I LOVE the rhythm tones I get out of a good Tele, and a Jazzmaster can out Tele a Tele sometimes IMHO.
- Jazzmasters do have a little bit of that Hollowbody resonance thing to them too due to the big whack-o-chambering under the pickguard

Jaguar
- The attack is that 24" scale "Tchack" enhanced by the bridge system
- Sustain sounds shorter than it is, a VERY overdriven Jaguar can stand heel to toe with a Les Paul from my experience...the initial hit stays very short, but the remaining tone afterward lingers for awhile, punchy I'd call it
- PICKUP BY PICKUP
-- NECK - Almost a strat-like quality with a milder version of the Mustang's "Hoopiness", partially augmented by the bridge system
-- BOTH - Jangly, snarly, almost sort of Gretsch like, or like a Hi-Fidelity Les Paul sort of sound, again, like the Jazzmaster, a stereotypical Surf tone
-- BRIDGE - Snarly, Midrange Heavy, but with sparkling spanking highs - all the benefits of a Les Paul with almost none of the shortcomings, really gained up it can veer toward the Van-Halen side, yes, I'm talking about a SINGLE COIL Jag here!
-- RHYTHM - Clean is very warm, kind of fuzzy, sort of like a Department Store speaker, but gained up it sounds like Brian May lead lines in a way, I love using the rhythm circuit on a Jag for leads
- The Jaguar's shorter scale means the 3rd bridge effect is highly enhanced. I love covering things like The Chameleons on a Jaguar because that extra string behind the bridge gets picked up by the compressor and tossed through the Reverbs/Delays/Chorus and other stuff and gives the guitar a very unique, almost ethereal edge - and with adapted playing style, this effect can be used like a pedal - turned on and off using palm muting of the strings behind or front of the bridge

In a Nutshell...

- The Jazzmaster has a very fizzy, sparkly sound with a very warm low end, almost not midrange, and a smoother attack, shorter decay and sustain, nice midrangey bridge but minus any of the low mids that warm it up, giving it that signature single-coil twangy character.

- The Jaguar has a very snarly, midrange heavy sound, that sometimes can block out it's own warmth with that midrange, giving the illusion that it's "small", "tinny" or "weak" sounding when it in fact just the amp you are using. Through a good BALANED amplifier a Jaguar can be quite a stout jack of trades ally. The initial attack is the same as the Jazzmaster, but the sustain stays longer due to the shorter scale, and the shorter scale also places more emphasis on the behind-the-bridge harmonic effects.

[Telliot]

^^^ Perfect.

[Cyclonick]

@Mad-Mike: wow, nice explanation! Sounds reasonable.

here is one more vid: JM/Jag/Mustang

[BoringPostcards]

@Mad-Mike: wow, nice explanation! Sounds reasonable.

here is one more vid: JM/Jag/Mustang

Only thing good about that video is the riffs the guy's playing.
The Jag, JM and Mustang used in the comparison are all Fender Japan models. Neither the Japanese Jags or JMs have proper pickups and the 69RI Mustang pups are weak and nowhere near as good as vintage or the 65RI. Would have been better with a CIJ 65RI Mustang rather than the 69RI they used, as they are very close to the originals, including the cloth wiring and capacitors.
So basically that vid is only good for differentiating Japanese reissues.
Would have made way more sense if they had've compared AVRI/AVs (and a 65RI CIJ Mustang) or actual vintage models.

[Cyclonick]

Right. I have also read that some MIJ JM pickups are just ordinary single coils put in JM sized housings.
Not sure about that one in the vid, but I had thought/hoped that even those japan reissues were designed to at least come close to the specific sounds of either a Jag, a JM or a Mustang. Guess that isnt the case, but still they sound differently in that vid.