I think I've had it...

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.
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Larry Mal
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Re: I think I've had it...

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Feb 27, 2024 3:46 pm

alexpigment wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2024 3:37 pm
For a person who regularly plays Gibsons like yourself, I suspect bridge height is a complete non-issue for you though.
Yeah, a few years back I thought I would just put one degree shims in all my Fenders to get the neck angled like how Gibson does it, but in some cases one degree is just way too much.

But yeah, a half degree could be removed or added to, so it seems like that would be just great for offsets. I'm not against the angled neck pocket, though. Although I'm seeing a lot more complaints about it being too much- or not accurate- than I would have guessed.
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RavenCrest
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Re: I think I've had it...

Post by RavenCrest » Tue Feb 27, 2024 4:38 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2024 8:48 am
RavenCrest wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2024 8:36 am


It's purely cosmetic (aka irrational) It just bothers me for some reason. I think there's a 50/50 chance if I go ahead and get a "new" body that I may want to put it back because I'm an idiot like that sometimes.
I'd say it's more than just cosmetic. I'd never want a Jaguar or Jazzmaster with the tremolo unit shifted forward.

That length of string back there adds harmonics to the sound of the guitar. That's the magic of those guitars. Moving the tremolo unit forward in order to prevent the resonance makes it just another guitar. The dumbest thing Fender has ever done. What a stupid idea. It showed me that they didn't even know what makes their own guitars good.
I like how you put that. The harmonics are definitely different between my FCS and my CP JM. I just attributed that to the HW pickups vs the SD A1's

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Re: I think I've had it...

Post by RavenCrest » Tue Feb 27, 2024 4:59 pm

alexpigment wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2024 1:57 pm
RavenCrest wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2024 8:36 am
Yea I saw some options on eBay for MJT, nothing really caught my eye just yet. Warmoth unfinished bodies are not terribly expensive, but more than double if you want some sort of finish. So that may be out on Warmoth.
alexpigment wrote: What do you find problematic about the position of the tremolo?
It's purely cosmetic (aka irrational) It just bothers me for some reason. I think there's a 50/50 chance if I go ahead and get a "new" body that I may want to put it back because I'm an idiot like that sometimes.
That's fair. They come up several times per week (I get an eBay email about a new listing most mornings), but only one out of every 20 or so actually catches my eye. I only mentioned that because it's usually the cheapest option for a finished offset body that I'm aware of, especially if you're possibly wanting some relicing done as you alluded to. Like you said, Warmoth gets pricey for a finished guitar, which is why I've yet to go down that route. It's certainly worth checking out some of the other suggested brands mentioned in the thread.

Also, no worries about a cosmetic (and possibly irrational) reasoning for something. I won't buy a guitar if I feel the decal on the headstock is not in the 'ideal' place. Certainly not rational, but somehow the decal placement is such a make-or-break thing for me. Plastic color mismatches bother me too. I think everyone here can relate to cosmetic pettiness to some degree. If you do go with a non-Fender body, the neck pocket will likely be flat, so with the standard trem spacing you'll need to shim until you get the correct action and break angle over the bridge. This seems like a trivial task on paper, but there are some nuances to it, so I'd recommend paying the extra money to get one of those Stewmac 3-size pack of shims (along with their insane shipping fee).

I can relate to the decal placement. If it's off/looks off I'll poopoo the entire instrument. Little things like plastic color variations, I can easily address if they come up. I've even considered finding a vintage body for a natural relic but of course money can be a predictable obstacle. But I can dream right?

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Re: I think I've had it...

Post by RavenCrest » Tue Feb 27, 2024 5:03 pm

Surfysonic wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2024 10:01 am
I've also got a BloomDoom body that I love. Highly recommend BloomDoom - https://bloomdoomguitar.com/

If BloomDoom doesn't have what you're looking for in the Ready to Go section (under Shop), check out the Coming Soon section as well as Custom Order (also under Shop. Reasonably priced, similar to MJT. I also have a terrific MJT body.

Both MJT and BloomDoom are solid options based on my experience. :)
Oh damn, I've never seen Bloomdoom's site before, prices are reasonable too! :D

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sugarandopium
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Re: I think I've had it...

Post by sugarandopium » Wed Feb 28, 2024 5:28 am

ainm wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2024 11:53 am

I swapped out the AOM for a Gotoh 510bn TOM. It has height adjustable saddles, which is not something you easily find on AOM/TOM bridges. I needed to buy some new adapter studs to fit the thinner posts the bridge takes, but they screw into what was already there without any mods.
Do you remember what size adapters you got for this?

I want to try one of those gotohs, I didn’t even know adjustable saddle TOMs exsisted!
I have an AP bridge on my CP but this looks like a fun project.
I think the thread on the CP is M8…

And yeah I hear a huge difference in JMs with the closer trem placement. The harmonic undertones are almost non existent.
Unplugged it’s very noticeable.

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Re: I think I've had it...

Post by sugarandopium » Wed Feb 28, 2024 5:30 am

Okay yeah I should’ve read first, looks like the gotoh Tom is m4 thread.

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Re: I think I've had it...

Post by ainm » Wed Feb 28, 2024 9:41 am

sugarandopium wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2024 5:28 am
ainm wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2024 11:53 am

I swapped out the AOM for a Gotoh 510bn TOM. It has height adjustable saddles, which is not something you easily find on AOM/TOM bridges. I needed to buy some new adapter studs to fit the thinner posts the bridge takes, but they screw into what was already there without any mods.
Do you remember what size adapters you got for this?

I want to try one of those gotohs, I didn’t even know adjustable saddle TOMs exsisted!
I have an AP bridge on my CP but this looks like a fun project.
I think the thread on the CP is M8…

And yeah I hear a huge difference in JMs with the closer trem placement. The harmonic undertones are almost non existent.
Unplugged it’s very noticeable.
Yeah, I’m not going to pretend the behind the bridge stuff sounds the same as with a properly placed trem, but maybe it’ll not be as drastic on a Jazzmaster because the placement shift as a ratio to the string length may be smaller than on a Jag? I don’t know. I’d like to think they didn’t just move the trems arbitrarily and that the length behind is still at a harmonic interval. Maybe I’m being optimistic on that - I’ll measure the Jag to see.

The adapters I got were labelled “ Adaptor Studs and Anchors for Small-Hole 4mm (5/32") Tunematic Bridges - Metric M8 Thread“. If trem use is important to you, beware that the Gotoh is still very much a TOM with the knife-like saddles. Then again, I’ve read convincing arguments on why a TOM is just fine with an offset trem. I wouldn’t know as I never use them and I think the general consensus is against TOMs with them.

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Mondaysoutar
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Re: I think I've had it...

Post by Mondaysoutar » Thu Feb 29, 2024 12:49 am

I had a Vintera Modified for a wee while when they first came out and I had no issues at all with the trem/AOM combo. I thought it played really pretty great actually.

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Mechanical Birds
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Re: I think I've had it...

Post by Mechanical Birds » Thu Feb 29, 2024 3:48 pm

alexpigment wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:42 pm
The bridge is easy to deal with with some M8 grub screws and some springs. You basically can just drop in an American Pro bridge into the AOM posts after that (or perhaps a vintage bridge if you prefer), and call it a day. Since you're getting a new bridge anyway, the grub screws and springs are a very small cost on top of that. What do you find problematic about the position of the tremolo? I know that it's not "classic", but honestly I think it has its benefits. :)

If you do want to find a new body, I suggest adding a saved eBay search for MJT JTM, which is the MJT model for their Jazzmaster bodies. A lot of them come relic'd already, but there are some "closet classics" that come up too (albeit never a purely perfect finish). Most of them go for around $300 or less. On the other hand, you can spend quite a bit more money with Warmoth or similar and get exactly what you want.
Yeah, I had a similar situation to OP when I first started actually buying and learning about these guitars. Years later, an indefensible and impossible to ever come close to recovering amount of money sunken into several guitars that I’m now stuck with if I don’t want to lose ~$500 for each one, and I wouldn’t do it again.

I justified it at the time as ‘it’s just gonna be like my signature model and I’ll WANT to keep it forever.’ I love each of the 4 guitars I did this with and have accepted the fact that I’ll have them forever, but in the same situation I’d simply find what I want in existing form, or make the requisite moves to get an MJT or whatever, and be much happier for it.

Upgrading the bridge is one thing - wholly valid and arguably necessary if you want the guitar to be a certain thing. Swapping everything over to another body so you can get a tiny bit wider plunk sound when you strum behind the bridge is not worth the time and effort and money you’ll sink into it.

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Re: I think I've had it...

Post by alexpigment » Thu Feb 29, 2024 6:16 pm

Mechanical Birds wrote:
Thu Feb 29, 2024 3:48 pm
Yeah, I had a similar situation to OP when I first started actually buying and learning about these guitars. Years later, an indefensible and impossible to ever come close to recovering amount of money sunken into several guitars that I’m now stuck with if I don’t want to lose ~$500 for each one, and I wouldn’t do it again.

I justified it at the time as ‘it’s just gonna be like my signature model and I’ll WANT to keep it forever.’ I love each of the 4 guitars I did this with and have accepted the fact that I’ll have them forever, but in the same situation I’d simply find what I want in existing form, or make the requisite moves to get an MJT or whatever, and be much happier for it.

Upgrading the bridge is one thing - wholly valid and arguably necessary if you want the guitar to be a certain thing. Swapping everything over to another body so you can get a tiny bit wider plunk sound when you strum behind the bridge is not worth the time and effort and money you’ll sink into it.
A new body is totally not the cost-effective way to go about it. He just mentioned that that was where he was leaning and was keeping an eye out for an LPB body. And if that's where your heart is, it's probably a hell of a lot cheaper than finding an LPB Jazzmaster with a rosewood neck. I really was encouraging the replacement bridge and living with the trem spacing (which again I've never found any inherent problems with once you get the other elephants out of the room).

With that all being said, if you regularly visit a forum like this and you don't have at least *one* guitar that's worth more than the sum of its parts, or one that you wouldn't lose a decent amount when trying to sell it, you are probably in the minority ;) Guitar modding is largely incongruent with the resale market, and ironically whoever buys your guitar will probably spend an equal amount of money returning it to stock. If we can learn anything, it's that you should keep all the original parts from a guitar, and put them back on before selling it. You can probably make the rest back by re-selling any valuable upgrades separately.

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Re: I think I've had it...

Post by Mechanical Birds » Thu Feb 29, 2024 9:50 pm

I tend to overexplain and then get distracted and lose the plot. I just saw him saying there was a nagging feeling that something wasn’t right brought on by finding out after the fact that his guitar is different from what it’s ‘supposed to be’ and I see myself feeling the same way and making moves to fix it that ultimately weren’t super fulfilling and that I find kind of regrettable but obviously YMMV and for every one of me there are 10 guys on here who would think I sound crazy if they played or even saw the guitars I’m talking about.

Do what thou wilt, 100%, but if you like your guitar as is and want to change it out of some kind of FOMO based on reading other people’s opinions about bridge placement or whatever, maybe consider the law of diminishing returns before taking a deep dive on replacing stuff. Think about it for a long time, actually. All I’m saying :)

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Re: I think I've had it...

Post by RavenCrest » Fri Mar 01, 2024 7:35 pm

I love the array of opinions in this thread. I'm a very open thinker and I admittedly have a lot of kookie ideas on well...everything so sound boarding some of my lunacy is par in my case. Will I do anything? Depends. Does it bother me enough that I have to change it tomorrow? Nah, but as someone mentioned earlier, the shorter vibrato location in the classic player eliminates some of the harp like sounds that you can f around with (think Mike Lemmo, he does this a lot) and not that I do that myself, I kinda wonder if that distance difference lends to some minor characteristics with certain players. I certainly wouldn't consider myself at a level of skill that could effectively exploit such a feature, but that being said, MY reason for this was almost purely cosmetic. Or more accurately "irrational"

If I happen to find a decent price on a replacement body that has the spec and color I'd be content with then sure I'll probably swap it, put the original body up for sale or in a soft padded case if I ever sold it so it could be put back to stock. I don't necessarily see the Classic Player retaining that much long term value but it's the guitar market. Anything is possible.

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Re: I think I've had it...

Post by ainm » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:06 am

Just measured my Vintera HH Jag. String lengths are around about the 4” behind the bridge. Interestingly, four of the behind the bridge strings bar are intonated to an equal temperament note:
C# (low E)
F (A)
Flat A# (D)
D# (G)
F# (B)
Flat E (E)

The guitar is perfectly intonated in the traditional sense, so I guess there could be a fair bit of sympathetic stuff going on back there when chording. Now, of course, I need to figure out what gauge of D and high E strings will give me an ‘intonation’ on both sides. Fun!

But I think this possibly highlights something? That is: if you have a traditionally placed trem but your guitar is set up with strings and a bridge height such that the behind the bridge course of strings doesn’t get close to an equal temperament note, then you’re not going to get much from back there?

Are there any physicists about who can pitch in?

All I know is that I was dissatisfied with this guitar and I messed about with it until I heard something I liked. Normally, I’d just stick a Mustang bridge and my favourite strings on and make it easy to play. This time, I’ve ended up with something that’s difficult to play but with a sound I absolutely adore. Works for me. Don’t play it with my eyes; my hands can adapt.

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Re: I think I've had it...

Post by alexpigment » Mon Mar 25, 2024 7:04 pm

sugarandopium wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2024 7:39 am
You don’t even need the springs, just m8 that are long enough will get you there.
I just really wanted to come in and give a huge thank you for this comment. I had tried both 8mm and 10mm length m8 screws in the past - both of those definitely needed springs or they would fall into the body under the inserts. I got another mixed set of grub screws the other day that included a 16mm length, and put those into one of my guitars. The notes vibrate through the whole body and the guitar just has so much more harmonic complexity now. Such an obvious thing that never occurred to me. Thank you again. This made a world of difference.

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Re: I think I've had it...

Post by crazyzeke » Mon Mar 25, 2024 9:47 pm

RavenCrest wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2024 9:14 pm
Because I'm a bit OCD (ok maybe more than a bit) My Classic Player JM is bothering me.
As a few people have already said, they never should have moved the vibrato plate closer to the bridge. The improvement of break angle doesn't fix the bridge problems when using round wounds completely. What it does instead is compromise the offset tone, in my experience more so than using a Buzz Stop on an offset with the vibrato plate in the regular position closer to the bottom bout strap button. That vibrato plate is integral to the offset core tone no matter what - if you move the plate, you lose it. If you fit a Gibson style stoptail and bridge, you lose it. It survives even when you heavily mod an offset, as I have done. I've tried maybe half a dozen CP JMs and Jags at this point, all stock off the peg in guitar stores, and they don't have the same mojo. I've even owned one of the Jaguar Special HH in black/chrome, and it was one of the dullest guitars I've had - no character of it's own whatsoever.
alexpigment wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2024 7:04 pm
I just really wanted to come in and give a huge thank you for this comment. I had tried both 8mm and 10mm length m8 screws in the past - both of those definitely needed springs or they would fall into the body under the inserts. I got another mixed set of grub screws the other day that included a 16mm length, and put those into one of my guitars. The notes vibrate through the whole body and the guitar just has so much more harmonic complexity now. Such an obvious thing that never occurred to me. Thank you again. This made a world of difference.
You're right; it is good advice. Anything that increases the size of the contact points of the bridge to the body will increase sustain and thicken tone on offsets. My quick solution for this years ago which has worked surprisingly well was fit VGA plug mounting screws from an old dead GPU to the bottom of the Mastery bridge as for some reason the thread gauge is a perfect match. This was originally done to stop bridge sinking as even on the Mastery I was paranoid it'd sink during a gig (I've had both stock and Mustang bridges slip on their original grub screws which you usually don't notice until you play a solo and suddenly every time you bend a string even a tone it chokes out, super embarrassing).

[imghttps://previews.123rf.com/images/fotokot197/fotokot1971702/fotokot197170200104/74410075-analog-vga-port-to-connect-the-monitor-to-the-graphics-card-closeup.jpg[/img]

I feel perhaps sugarandopium's suggestion is better. Mine means you can't adjust the action without taking out the bridge, not that I ever need to do that (it's pretty low as the neck is shimmed).
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