There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Discussion of newer designs, copies and reissue offset-waist instruments.
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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by Powdered Toast Man » Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:13 pm

I think whatever has gone on at Fender during the pandemic has had a negative effect on their instruments. This would NOT be the first time since 2021 that there's been some questionable stuff been sent out in the last year and half. Not ALL the instruments are bad, but it's obvious they're rushing anything and everything out the door due to demand. They did hire a whole lot of people and in that environment I'd imagine training isn't superb. Then they laid off a whole shift and it makes me wonder who got cut - the experienced people who are making more money, or the noobs who don't have the experience? And again, with capacity running at 100% their QC rejection thresholds might have been lowered. It's sad that they've decided to focus on volume over quality, but this is the result.

It's pretty obvious that the peak era for Fender is 2010-2020. Anything beyond there is kind of a roll the dice and see what you get. There is a feeling among the other boards I frequent that the earlier run AO's (2018-19) are very high quality and that the 2020-22's have had a few issues. Kinda figures that when they retooled the lines for the AVii models any momentum from the previous lines had is gone and now the cracks are starting to show. I know my 2021 AO60's JM had a few minor things on it that probably should have been caught by QC (defective witch hat knob, grimy switch tip) but it went through. Not major, but really unusual to see at the time.

As for the stuff about Puisheen... I mean I'd have a hard time trying to assert whatever motives are being suggested here. I have never seen him rip into a guitar like this video. The AO he recently did had some final assembly issues as well but they were more like oops mistakes. He's been pretty easy on Squiers and excused some quality quibbles before too. He did show evidence and comparisons to back up his problems so objectively he's not just pulling shit out of thin air. And I get his feelings over it - the AVii's are some of the most expensive production line guitars Fender has ever put out and the only thing a tech should have to do is adjust the setup for the environmental changes and for the player (basically truss rod and maybe action). They should NOT need fret crowning and other finishing work.

I do find it curious that he's done marketing work for Fender in the past and these days he had to rely on a third party to even get his hands on a newly released guitar. Would suggest Ma Fender has disavowed him.

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by Maggieo » Sun Nov 20, 2022 1:13 pm

Powdered Toast Man wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:13 pm
As for the stuff about Puisheen... I mean I'd have a hard time trying to assert whatever motives are being suggested here. I have never seen him rip into a guitar like this video. The AO he recently did had some final assembly issues as well but they were more like oops mistakes. He's been pretty easy on Squiers and excused some quality quibbles before too. He did show evidence and comparisons to back up his problems so objectively he's not just pulling shit out of thin air. And I get his feelings over it - the AVii's are some of the most expensive production line guitars Fender has ever put out and the only thing a tech should have to do is adjust the setup for the environmental changes and for the player (basically truss rod and maybe action). They should NOT need fret crowning and other finishing work.
It reminded me of folks ordering a Gibson Custom Shop Les Paul, like an R7-8-9, and it arriving in even worse shape than the demo JM. And they paid over $3K those.
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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by wooderson » Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:43 pm

I don't know if the tinfoil hat is needed about the Mike and Mike guy's video - those frets visibly look like crap, the workmanship is subpar. It's disappointing in a $2500 Fender given that the $400 Squiers on the wall at Guitar Center have all been pretty freaking good IMO.

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by Unicorn Warrior » Sun Nov 20, 2022 3:49 pm

Powdered Toast Man wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:13 pm

I do find it curious that he's done marketing work for Fender in the past and these days he had to rely on a third party to even get his hands on a newly released guitar. Would suggest Ma Fender has disavowed him.
This is a very good point. I’d like to know the story behind this, and now can’t help but wonder.

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by Nevets » Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:42 pm

He made a Fender video that showed me how to install a preloaded pickguard. But he was going by "Miami Mike" and didn't have a beard.

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by redchapterjubilee » Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:04 am

The video should serve as a friendly reminder that buying new U.S. Fender blind off the internet is sometimes a gamble. It has been that way for MIM, MIJ, and Squier for as long as I can remember. I’ve been rewarded and burned on unboxing day. Sometimes you get the good ones, sometimes not. The puisheen and his friends got a bad one. And unforgivable bad is up for debate. Obvs in that video he made it look and sound good. But I think mike is one of those guys that can make any offset sound good in his hands. Even $2400 offsets off the wall at guitar center have a high percentage chance of needing as much work. Shoot, any guitar, not just an offset. That said, you’d think fender would put more care into one going out for review though. And I agree that at $2400 it should be stellar off the wall.

As for puisheen, dude serves a purpose. I’ve not learned much in his videos that I hadn’t already learned from a dozen years haunting OSG. But I like his videos, enjoy his playing, and take much of what he says as entertainment. He may look cool, have good taste, and play well but he’s still a guitar store dude that will overcharge you and misinform you while being utterly charming. In this case, he’s being a bit nitpicky and in some of his complaints he’s repeating anecdotal evidence rather than what he’s actually put his mitts and eyes on. Based solely on the guitar mike had in hand I’d say if someone bought it they’d have a good case for 25% off that guitar to get it set up and wired right. The work and the guitar would come out less than the guitar new but the difference should offset the “my new toy broke on Xmas” woe.

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by johnnysomersett » Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:24 am

Mike Adams-bashing aside (I think we've flogged that horse enough, even if I am guilty of it on numerous occasions) I think the guitar I had was overall a good instrument. It sounded great, was light and resonant and, from a few feet away, looked fantastic. If it hadn't been for the weird shoulder they'd sanded in I'd have kept it as the other issues were minor enough to forget about/get over easily. It definitely felt like a 2k guitar in today's pricing climate. Moreso than a used AV65 would for 3.5k.
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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by honeypower » Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:49 pm

First time poster here - thanks all for your wisdom on this thread. I’m looking for my first offset guitar and the JM AVii caught my eye, esp in the blue. Tried it in store alongside the American Pro 2 and really enjoyed it, but then been reading about the build issues. So the context here was really helpful.

Now just got to choose between that and the Marr Jaguar…..

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by Pelicashka » Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:39 pm

If I hadn’t known about these issues, I never would have noticed any defects, except for the wrong tremolo arm.

Yes, there are indeed some file marks, or whatever you call them, on the fretboard, and who knows, maybe the ground wire inside is not soldered to the correct place, but should I care? The guitar sounds and plays great. Are the frets crowned correctly? No idea, I’m not a guitar luthier. Would I notice that tiny gap in the neck pocket if not for Puisheen’s video? I bet I wouldn’t.

So, yes, his review is important as in raising awareness about the QC and all of that, and I hope it has a positive effect, but it did kind of spoil my buying experience by making me paranoid and more OCD than I really am.

I did get over it though, decided to keep this gorgeous LPB, and just to enjoy it!

P.S. I had a suspicion that it has been returned by someone; by some minor clues, e.g., there was some extra sticky translucent tape over the Fender’s paper sticky tape on the box it came in, the neck tags were off and in the case pocket, etc. But really, I don’t feel like starting a dispute with Thomann to prove it’s a B-stock, and I’m not 100% sure. Even if it was, and can’t see why someone would return it?

It’s a great guitar and yes, we all want them to be 100% perfect, but in the real world I don’t think it’s realistic.

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by Unicorn Warrior » Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:53 pm

Pelicashka wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:39 pm
If I hadn’t known about these issues, I never would have noticed any defects, except for the wrong tremolo arm.

Yes, there are indeed some file marks, or whatever you call them, on the fretboard, and who knows, maybe the ground wire inside is not soldered to the correct place, but should I care? The guitar sounds and plays great. Are the frets crowned correctly? No idea, I’m not a guitar luthier. Would I notice that tiny gap in the neck pocket if not for Puisheen’s video? I bet I wouldn’t.

So, yes, his review is important as in raising awareness about the QC and all of that, and I hope it has a positive effect, but it did kind of spoil my buying experience by making me paranoid and more OCD than I really am.

I did get over it though, decided to keep this gorgeous LPB, and just to enjoy it!

P.S. I had a suspicion that it has been returned by someone; by some minor clues, e.g., there was some extra sticky translucent tape over the Fender’s paper sticky tape on the box it came in, the neck tags were off and in the case pocket, etc. But really, I don’t feel like starting a dispute with Thomann to prove it’s a B-stock, and I’m not 100% sure. Even if it was, and can’t see why someone would return it?

It’s a great guitar and yes, we all want them to be 100% perfect, but in the real world I don’t think it’s realistic.
100% this. FWIW, I had a Marr Jag that wasn’t grounded properly and the e-strings were falling off the fretboard due to an improperly machined bridge. This isn’t Fenders first rodeo with this kind of stuff.

I put a little TLC into it and it was perfect.

Good for you man. Enjoy that guitar. No doubt it’s a great one.

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by algeriet » Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:48 am

johnnysomersett wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 7:51 am
but he is part of the duo that are charging $3399.99 for a USED AVRI62. That speaks volumes in my mind.
Okay that price is atrocious and I pity whoever pays that much for an AVRI62. :fp:
johnnysomersett wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 4:24 am
I think the guitar I had was overall a good instrument. It sounded great, was light and resonant and, from a few feet away, looked fantastic. If it hadn't been for the weird shoulder they'd sanded in I'd have kept it as the other issues were minor enough to forget about/get over easily. It definitely felt like a 2k guitar in today's pricing climate. Moreso than a used AV65 would for 3.5k.
Imo, and with respect, your guitar's weird binding sanding was another symptom of poor craftmanship, add to that the marks on the fretboard and it goes hand in hand with both the guitar Puisheen reviewed as well as the other guitars he mentioned in the video, including the Trogly AVII with the offset dots.
Powdered Toast Man wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:13 pm
It's pretty obvious that the peak era for Fender is 2010-2020.
You mean 2012-2017 right? 😎 Just playing, baby! :P
Powdered Toast Man wrote:
Sun Nov 20, 2022 12:13 pm
the only thing a tech should have to do is adjust the setup for the environmental changes and for the player (basically truss rod and maybe action). They should NOT need fret crowning and other finishing work.
Absolutely agree, and unfortunately the JM/Jaguar scene is worse where in that one almost always need to swap the bridge out for a Staytrem/Mastery etc, but that's an entirely different argument.
Unicorn Warrior wrote:
Sat Nov 19, 2022 10:36 am
Those AVRIs and AOs didn’t all come from the factory perfect either. Hence why we’ve had a boom for alternative parts for fenders in the last several years
Mate, there's a difference between a swapping out the OG bridge because of lack of knowledge how to set them up (a completely different argument, let's save that one for another day) and fretwork done by an amateur, scratches all over the instrument and amateur wiring.
Pelicashka wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:39 pm
Yes, there are indeed some file marks, or whatever you call them, on the fretboard, and who knows, maybe the ground wire inside is not soldered to the correct place, but should I care? The guitar sounds and plays great. Are the frets crowned correctly? No idea, I’m not a guitar luthier. Would I notice that tiny gap in the neck pocket if not for Puisheen’s video? I bet I wouldn’t.

It’s a great guitar and yes, we all want them to be 100% perfect, but in the real world I don’t think it’s realistic.
Hi, if I understand you correctly, only a luthier/tech should care if the frets are crowned correctly? If that is what you meant then I absolutely do not agree as the fretboard and frets are crucial for your intonation.

At 2400 USD, this guitar, which is the price range just below their Custom Shop i.e. it is their créme de la créme when it comes to Fender USA standard production, should be constructed by professionals and delivered to the utmost quality. The whole marketing gimmick of "Made In USA" is that US made guitars are supposed to be the best, which unfortunately isn't always the rule these days. I don't think I am being unrealistic in expecting a scratch free guitar, good routings considering they are done by CNC and fretwork better than a cheapo guitar. Also soldering a Jazzmaster is a pretty straight forward operation, especially if you are the inventor of the schematic.

All signs from the guitar in his video, as well as from others who have reported on their experiences, show similar issues as those that lead to Fender's decline in quality in the CBS-era, which this guitar ironically is a reissue of. With that said, I am sure your guitar rules and am I not doubting your experiences with it, I just disagree on letting someone that charges this much money get away with potentially selling people faulty products, which is what I took away from your post.
Unicorn Warrior wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:53 pm
I had a Marr Jag that wasn’t grounded properly and the e-strings were falling off the fretboard due to an improperly machined bridge. This isn’t Fenders first rodeo with this kind of stuff.

I put a little TLC into it and it was perfect.
The incorrect spacing on the previous bridges was really meh, and it's a shame to hear about the grounding, but before, in my experience, the mentality was simply get a Marr or an AV65 etc and all you will need to do is swap the bridge, now it's "I hope my guitar won't have scratch marks all over the body, neck and fretboard, oh gee I hope the binding/neck is sanded correctly and not angular, oh and I will also most likely pop on a Staytrem." Things have definitely developed for the worse imo.
honeypower wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:49 pm
First time poster here - thanks all for your wisdom on this thread. I’m looking for my first offset guitar and the JM AVii caught my eye, esp in the blue. Tried it in store alongside the American Pro 2 and really enjoyed it, but then been reading about the build issues. So the context here was really helpful.

Now just got to choose between that and the Marr Jaguar…..
I am happy that I could pass on my wisdom to you regarding the incorrect headstock shape of the AVII66s.
Just kidding! (No need to kill me Powdered Toast Man!)

Imo, if the guitar you tried in store was nice, and please inspect it with a fine tooth comb, then it's a good one, as simple as that. The Marr Jaguar on the other hand... That's a fine guitar. 😈

Unless FMIC 2022 are messing up those as well.
Last edited by algeriet on Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by Pelicashka » Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:29 am

algeriet wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:48 am
Pelicashka wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:39 pm
Yes, there are indeed some file marks, or whatever you call them, on the fretboard, and who knows, maybe the ground wire inside is not soldered to the correct place, but should I care? The guitar sounds and plays great. Are the frets crowned correctly? No idea, I’m not a guitar luthier. Would I notice that tiny gap in the neck pocket if not for Puisheen’s video? I bet I wouldn’t.

It’s a great guitar and yes, we all want them to be 100% perfect, but in the real world I don’t think it’s realistic.
Hi, if I understand you correctly, only a luthier/tech should care if the frets are crowned correctly? If that is what you meant then I absolutely do not agree as the fretboard and frets are crucial for your intonation.

At 2400 USD, this guitar, which is the price range just below their Custom Shop i.e. it is their créme de la créme when it comes to Fender USA standard production, should be constructed by professionals and delivered to the utmost quality. The whole marketing gimmick of "Made In USA" is that US made guitars are supposed to be the best, which unfortunately isn't always the rule these days. I don't think I am being unrealistic in expecting a scratch free guitar, good routings considering they are done by CNC and fretwork better than a cheapo guitar. Also soldering a Jazzmaster is a pretty straight forward operation, especially if you are the inventor of the schematic.

All signs from the guitar in his video, as well as from others who have reported on their experiences, show similar issues as those that lead to Fender's decline in quality in the CBS-era, which this guitar ironically is a reissue of. With that said, I am sure your guitar rules and am I not doubting your experiences with it, I just disagree on letting someone that charges this much money get away with potentially selling people faulty products, which is what I took away from your post.
Hi,

In no way I am saying that these things are okay. Like I said, if Puisheen's video reached Fender and had an effect on their QC procedures, I would only applaud this. And I definitely do not approve companies pushing faulty products as new.

With regard to the frets, what I meant to say is that I cannot really tell if they're crowned correctly or not, which is why I can only judge by how the guitar plays, and it generally sounds good to my ears, and intonation seems better than with any other guitar that I've owned. I also intend to take it to the local guitar tech at some point and if he finds things that can be improved, I wouldn't mind him fixing them.

Regarding your point about non-acceptable issues, I think depends on a person. It doesn't bother me if a fretboard has a couple of instrument scratches (unless they get in the way of playing like in Mike's video), but if the body finish was scratched I would return it, etc.

There's always something. Almost every musical instrument or a car I purchased had some tiny quirks or minor imperfections. And that's OK. Those that didn't have any, soon acquired these imperfections, not without my help. lol

If you know what I mean. :)
algeriet wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:48 am
The Marr Jaguar on the other hand... That's a fine guitar. 😈

Unless FMIC 2022 are messing up those as well.
And it looks like they are! In the comments under Puisheen's video I saw someone complain about the new Fever Dream Johnny Marr Jaguar that also had major quality control issues. Go figure.

Edit: I found this comment and will quote it below.
then0hcim
3 days ago
I ordered and received a johnny marr fever jag and am ultimately disappointed in their QC. The pickguard didn't fit right at all-- the bridge holes weren't large enough so the pickguard was floating and had gaps everywhere at the bridge and upper treble circuit area. I contacted Fender and they responded once but have gone silent since. The guitar also has tooling marks and glue or clearcoat residue on the rosewood fingerboard. It's a shame really that when paying $2300 these things are still signed off on as good to go in QC when in actuality I am left let down feeling like I got a Factory 2nd. Also, has anyone noticed Johnny's example in this video has a white pickguard like his other jags and not the Mint that this limited run shipped with? At any rate I am hoping to hear back from them but I have since put another Johnny Marr pickguard in White on the guitar. I had to spend over an hour doweling the pickguard's bridge holes to fit, as well as the neck pickup.. but it's on there now. I'm lucky I atleast have the know how to do that, but I am rather upset at the whole situation.

Update... they gave me $100 back and i sold the guitar on Reverb. Fender is slipping these days, wont ever purchase one again sight unseen in good faith

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by Pelicashka » Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:43 am

Guys,

Thomann is killing me. I asked them to send me a tremolo arm replacement, because the wrong one was supplied with the guitar.

They have the correct one In Stock, however they are telling me that it's not the correct one, and they are saying the following:

"it does not match the specifications of the part registered in our internal system. Please consider that the purchased item is of the American Vintage II series, and therefore not part of the first American Vintage series indicated in the description, the specifications may vary.".

I mean, am I right or am I wrong?

I checked the guitar and it has the exact same vibrato as the original AVRI with Pat # 2972923 engraved on it. And according to Fender.com there's just one tremolo arm that fits this vibrato unit. It's the one I shared the link to above.

How hard can that be for them to understand?

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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by Larry Mal » Thu Nov 24, 2022 8:08 am

That Puisheen video was pretty brutal. I'm one to excuse some slop and I do not view factory made instruments as every coming completely finished, either. Still, that was some bullshit that would have rankled even me.

I've said for years that Fender would eliminate American labor if they could, and I'll point out that I haven't heard of layoffs in Mexico nor in any other nation at Fender factories. I'm not saying it hasn't happened.

But I will say fuck Fender, I do not like them as a company, and it does not surprise me that laying off hundreds of people at the factory that produces these guitars has seemingly resulted in more slop than normal coming out of the factory.

Any company's biggest asset is the experience, knowledge and care that employees bring to the table. That has not changed and cannot change. Fender is a bloated and out of touch international corporation and will come to regret forgetting that.
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Re: There's going to be an American Vintage 2 series apparently.

Post by zenarcade » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:02 am

I really wanted to like them but also sent 2 back because of obvious quality issues (wrong arm, all inlays not centered, chips etc). The one that was playing fine i almost kept, but it was super heavy (Les Paul territory). It's a shame - otherwise these would be cool guitars. Neck is exactly right (not as big as the American Original)... I really wonder what is going on at Fender. Seems similar to the time period at Gibson when they had Robo tuners and the Firebird X ;)

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