Did Fender steal the offset body shape?
- jcyphe
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Did Fender steal the offset body shape?
I was looking for a vintage guitar when i found this page.
1950s Romero solidbody, very rare and historically important guitar. The story goes that Romero, a music store in New Iberia Louisiana, was selling Fender Amps in the late 1940s. When they got their first solidbody, Broadcasters and such, they decided that they too could make guitars. When the Fender rep came though to call on them they, he ask if he could bring one out for Leo Fender to look at. Leo like the body shape (not much else) and used the shape for his upcoming Jazzmaster model. This example is quite nice, but played, the finish is a cross between Copper and burgundy mist. Call for price.
Given that Leo Fender was always one to take an existing idea and try to improve on it, could this be true?
1950s Romero solidbody, very rare and historically important guitar. The story goes that Romero, a music store in New Iberia Louisiana, was selling Fender Amps in the late 1940s. When they got their first solidbody, Broadcasters and such, they decided that they too could make guitars. When the Fender rep came though to call on them they, he ask if he could bring one out for Leo Fender to look at. Leo like the body shape (not much else) and used the shape for his upcoming Jazzmaster model. This example is quite nice, but played, the finish is a cross between Copper and burgundy mist. Call for price.
Given that Leo Fender was always one to take an existing idea and try to improve on it, could this be true?
- djetz
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- jcyphe
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Re: Did Fender steal the offset body shape?
My bad I was sleep walking for the month of August. Mods can delete this. Nobody had a definitive answer in the other thread anyways. I would be interested to know. I don't think it's big deal. Fender took plenty ideas from other people. His deisgn ethos was about making things better.
Last edited by jcyphe on Fri Nov 09, 2007 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- djetz
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Re: Did Fender steal the offset body shape?
I wasn't saying you were wrong to post it.jcyphe wrote: My bad I was sleep walking for the month of August. Mods can delete this. Nobody ahd a definitive answer in the other thread anyways. i would be interested to know. i don't think it's big deal. fender took plenty ideas from other people. His design ethos was about making things better.
Anyhoo, there is a definitive answer: people who are making shit up start off with weasel words like the story goes...
If there was any proof that this guitar existed before the Jazzmaster, the story would have been around long before now. It's been 49 years.
That, plus the fact that Leo patented the offset body shape. Seriously, if Leo had copied it, do you think he'd be stupid enough to patent it? It would have been simple to prove patent fraud if it had happened, and Fender would have had to hand over 100% of the profits and a substantial damages settlement. It would probably have put them out of business.
Keep in mind that a few years later, Fender sued Gibson over the Firebird, invoking the offset body patent. Fender won that case, which says to me that they were able to prove in a court of law that the design was a Fender invention. EDIT: Checked my facts - always a good thing to do after you've posted - and that case never actually went to court. Fender's lawyers threatened, Gibson's lawyers caved. It amounts to the same thing. Fender won. You don't threaten to sue people over a design you stole from someone else.
But really, that's beside the point, all you need to know is that any sales spiel that starts with the words the story goes... is bullshit. Especially when it comes to guitars.
Last edited by djetz on Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- spaceghost
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Re: Did Fender steal the offset body shape?
did everyone else steal the telecaster design?
yes...yes they did.
1952 BTW.
yes...yes they did.
1952 BTW.
- Stratelejazzuar
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Re: Did Fender steal the offset body shape?
yeah, and that sorry-ass looking romero offset was where CBS got it's big headstock idea from - i'm surprized that's not part of "how the story goes..."
and doesn't the "Romero" headstock logo look at least partially Fender-esque? why, yes. yes it does. especially with the small print underneath the company name.
lol
and doesn't the "Romero" headstock logo look at least partially Fender-esque? why, yes. yes it does. especially with the small print underneath the company name.
lol
- berlinbetty
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Re: Did Fender steal the offset body shape?
Does that mean that Firebirds started out as offsets? I only ask because there are a lot of people here who maintain that they are NOT offsets. I'm inclined to agree, myself, going by the 10 degree rule...
One more guitar, then I'll practice!
- mynameisjonas
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Re: Did Fender steal the offset body shape?
the waist may not be offset, but the horns and butt are.berlinbetty wrote: Does that mean that Firebirds started out as offsets? I only ask because there are a lot of people here who maintain that they are NOT offsets. I'm inclined to agree, myself, going by the 10 degree rule...
- berlinbetty
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Re: Did Fender steal the offset body shape?
I'm still confused. The horns and but of the Explorer are offset and that came out at the same time as the Jazzmaster, no? I thought the whole "offset" deal was the waist.
If Gibson's lawyers "caved", what exactly was it that they caved on? Was something changed from the initial design?
If Gibson's lawyers "caved", what exactly was it that they caved on? Was something changed from the initial design?
One more guitar, then I'll practice!
- djetz
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Re: Did Fender steal the offset body shape?
berlinbetty wrote: I'm still confused. The horns and but of the Explorer are offset and that came out at the same time as the Jazzmaster, no? I thought the whole "offset" deal was the waist.
If Gibson's lawyers "caved", what exactly was it that they caved on? Was something changed from the initial design?
From Gibson Electrics: The Classic Years by A. R. Duchossoir (page 106).
The image above was captured from the preview available here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=znsKtP ... Hi9XX7lmeA
The original Firebird was the non-reverse model, which is the more familiar one. In the mid sixties, they changed the entire design to the less well known reverse model - basically a different guitar. That was their response to the Fender lawsuit threats. Oddly enough, the reverse models look more "Fender-like" than the non-reverse ones... but by that time CBS had swallowed Fender and both versions of the Firebird had bombed in the marketplace, so nobody cared any more. When Gibson started reissuing them, they went with the original (non-reverse) design.
Non-reverse:
http://www.gibsoncustom.com/flash/produ ... rdVII.html
Reverse:
http://www.gibsoncustom.com/flash/produ ... -P90).html
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- mynameisjonas
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Re: Did Fender steal the offset body shape?
actually it's the later version that is referred to as non-reverse, as shown in the last link you posted.djetz wrote:berlinbetty wrote: I'm still confused. The horns and but of the Explorer are offset and that came out at the same time as the Jazzmaster, no? I thought the whole "offset" deal was the waist.
If Gibson's lawyers "caved", what exactly was it that they caved on? Was something changed from the initial design?
From Gibson Electrics: The Classic Years by A. R. Duchossoir (page 106).
The image above was captured from the preview available here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=znsKtP ... Hi9XX7lmeA
The original Firebird was the non-reverse model, which is the more familiar one. In the mid sixties, they changed the entire design to the less well known reverse model - basically a different guitar. That was their response to the Fender lawsuit threats. Oddly enough, the reverse models look more "Fender-like" than the non-reverse ones... but by that time CBS had swallowed Fender and both versions of the Firebird had bombed in the marketplace, so nobody cared any more. When Gibson started reissuing them, they went with the original (non-reverse) design.
Non-reverse:
http://www.gibsoncustom.com/flash/produ ... rdVII.html
Reverse:
http://www.gibsoncustom.com/flash/produ ... -P90).html
- Stratelejazzuar
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Re: Did Fender steal the offset body shape?
the non-reverse looks like a lefty-ish jazz/jag - the reverse is just a fugly thing...
- djetz
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Re: Did Fender steal the offset body shape?
Doh! I can never get that straight. Silly names, anyway.mynameisjonas wrote: actually it's the later version that is referred to as non-reverse, as shown in the last link you posted.
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