Detectives needed! Did I just accidentally buy a 1964/5 Jaguar?

[JagMeow]

Alright vintage Jag detectives, let's figure out what this thing is and the story-- here's your case:


The suspect in question:
Age: unknown, supposedly "late 60's with a lot of replaced parts and replaced neck"

Link in case image doesn't load

The clues:
-Pearloid dot inlay (suggests after mid 1964)
-Unbound neck (suggests before mid 1965)

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-F-Tuners (suggests early 1965? -- not sure)

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-Body: refin over sunburst

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-Routes could be legit:

link

-Pots replaced:

link

-Rhythm circuit could be original:

link

-Pickups could be legit, dated Jun 23 64 (sorry for the low quality pic)

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-Neck plate/serial number:
missing!

Now the case takes a turn and gets weird!
If these stamps and marks were on a 70's guitar, I wouldn't think twice, they look good to me. But would these marks be on a 60's guitar??

link

There's some debate on these 4 digit stamps online with no clear consensus. You potentially see them more often with refinishes. And they're more common in the 70's. Note the slight green (left) and red (right) markings. Some say the first two digits are the week and third digit denotes the year. Would love to hear more about this.

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The headstock is the weirdest part:
A second G/D string tree was added. It has a nylon "stump" as opposed to the metal stump on the E/B tree. Not that weird.
And then... inexplicably... someone at some point for some reason painted on (or really added?) the walnut imitation truss rod plug. I haven't seen this on a Jag.

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So the obvious original thought to me is that it's a more or less original late 64/early 65 body with some stuff replaced over the years, and at some point the 70's neck was put on for one reason or another.
...but no 70's jag neck looks like this! They'd all have block inlays and binding.

So, (potentially), was this was a late 64/early 65 guitar, that was sent back for refinishing at the Fender factory later?
Or (as I'm sure someone will say ) the whole thing came in a box from overseas last week and I'm a sucker?

Thanks detectives, good luck on the case!

[JagMeow]

Looks like the images didn't attach, maybe because my account is new? Anyway, I've added links now so that you can see the pics. Thanks!

[MelWaldorf]

FWIW, I've never seen a vintage Jaguar with a skunk stripe. Maybe one of the many reissue variants does?

[Embenny]

Looks like the images didn't attach, maybe because my account is new? Anyway, I've added links now so that you can see the pics. Thanks!

The images didn't attach because you copied the imgur link, not the photo address.

Hit "quote" on this post to see how I did it. You need the actual photo's address, which in your case ends in ".jpeg."

[JagMeow]

Great point!
It did occur to me the neck could have been a reissue, but wasn't able to find one that matched up. Additionally, the neck heel markings just feel too niche and accurate to what I've seen in the 70s. And of course this is anecdotal but it feels old.

Wait.

Could this be a 70's strat neck?

[Embenny]

It did occur to me the neck could have been a reissue, but wasn't able to find one that matched up. Additionally, the neck heel markings just feel too niche and accurate to what I've seen in the 70s. And of course this is anecdotal but it feels old.

Wait.

Could this be a 70's strat neck?

Wrong scale length. If it's a 24" neck like it should be, it's some kind of replacement. Fender didn't do skunk stripes on any vintage shortscale necks that I've ever seen.

[JagMeow]

Wrong scale length. If it's a 24" neck like it should be, it's some kind of replacement. Fender didn't do skunk stripes on any vintage shortscale necks that I've ever seen.

Good point! Just measured aaaand it's 24' bridge to nut. So weird! I did more or less expect the neck to be replaced here, still have a lot of questions though!

How does the body look to you?

[Highnumbers]

So, (potentially), was this was a late 64/early 65 guitar, that was sent back for refinishing at the Fender factory later?
Or (as I'm sure someone will say ) the whole thing came in a box from overseas last week and I'm a sucker?

0% chance that this was refinished at the factory. It most certainly was not.

(Why do people always optimistically jump to "factory refin" despite clear evidence to the contrary?)

It looks like a fun guitar, and I hope you bought this for very little money. Because essentially you have half a vintage ('64) Jaguar.

The neck is some kind of aftermarket replacement.

[Embenny]

Agreed, there is nothing factory about the refinish or the neck.

It looks like it's probably a vintage body with a few vintage parts on it.

[JagMeow]

0% chance that this was refinished at the factory. It most certainly was not.

Agree! Doesn't look like Fender factory quality to me. Does look pretty cool and beat up though!.

(Why do people always optimistically jump to "factory refin" despite clear evidence to the contrary?)

The "factory refin" was a theory I put out to somehow explain how the neck could have both reasonably convincing Fender 70s markings on it, and also have some specs line up with the original date of the guitar. Now we know that too many specs don't line up, so it was not original to the guitar (which is how it was presented and sold to me). I still don't have a really satisfying answer to why this neck looks so convincingly 70s. (I have other all original 70s guitars as well, so I'm not *entirely* talking out of my ass).

It looks like a fun guitar, and I hope you bought this for very little money. Because essentially you have half a vintage ('64) Jaguar.

It is super fun. Sounds amazing. Frets are pretty low so will need a refret (or maybe I just pull the trigger on a different neck to restore it) at some point. And I don't have to be too precious with it . I'm happy to hear that it seems like the body/pickups are original, that was my sense as well and how it was sold to me. Basically my impression was Body+Pickups+Wiring+Tailpiece were original (maybe pickgaurd, though that's not my area of expertise). I guess very-little money is relative, today I consider 5-6k to be a decent deal on a complete 1964 jag in good condition, I paid well less than half that (for hopefully a little over than half the guitar, lol). As long as the pickups and body are original, which again is how it was sold to me, I'm pretty happy.

The neck is some kind of aftermarket replacement.

It definitely could be, but do you have any info to back it up? I'd just be pretty surprised that someone put so much effort into building a neck that 1) wouldn't pass as counterfeit due to skunk stripe and 2) has so many details indicating some kind of Fender providence. Like why expend all the effort to use these niche Fender 70s heel stamps. You could much more easily use a 60s stamp if you wanted to pass something off as real (again, I bought this knowing the neck was replaced). I've linked some late 70s neck heel pics below, it would just be somewhat surprising to me that someone would perfectly emulate the WWYD 4 digit code, the QC stamps, but not go a step farther and show what people actually want to see like the neck config code or 60's style date. Just thinking about it and wanted to hear what the community thought!

[JagMeow]

Agreed, there is nothing factory about the refinish or the neck.

It looks like it's probably a vintage body with a few vintage parts on it.

Yep, agreed. Which is how it was presented to me and how I bought it. But do you really think there's absolutely nothing factory looking (granted, 70s, different factory and something weird is definitely going on) about the neck? I have a 70s strat as well, and the pocket and heel markings here are super convincing if I saw them on a guitar from the mid-late 70s. Granted, I don't have an awesome explanation for why it's on this guitar or what the story is, but "it's a repro" doesn't feel like an awesome explanation either.

70s neck info
more 70s necks

[timtam]

No vintage dome-shaped tops on the bridge height posts by the look of it. But I'm not sure what year those changed over to the flatter tops.

[copacetic]

Im about to fuck all you guy's minds up..

The neck stamp looked familiar to me.. then i realized my 77 musicmaster (or maybe my 78 musicmaster bass, cant remember got them around the same time) has that same "webright" stamp on the heel.
I did a quick search and found another example of a 78 musicmaster bass neck with the same stamp. Pics here: 70s MM bass heel

So now the plot thickens.. The construction, finish tint/style and neck heel stamps are all consistent with a 70s Fender Musicmaster (and i suppose possibly a jaguar of the same era if "mr. Webright" worked on jag necks too, but a 70s jag neck would have blocks+binding) but where it becomes an anomaly is with the skunk stripe and walnut plug. Given this is most likely a late 70s neck my hypothesis is it had some trouble with the original bullet style truss rod, and for whatever reason someone replaced it with a heel adjust 60s style truss rod, adding the skunk stripe at the same time.

The plates/trem look original, you just cant simulate aging/scuffing like that, at least nobody ive seen can.

My guess is this was a 70s MM neck that had some work done, possibly at the fender factory or by a very skilled luthier, then eventually found its way onto a (possibly) vintage body that has lots of vintage parts. If the pickups are legitimately from 64, my mind would tend to think its perhaps a 64 body with a few replaced parts (pots etc)
It was obviously refinished at some point, possibly when the neck work was done, possibly after, and im guessing a replacement headstock decal was added at that time so it would say Jaguar instead of Musicmaster. The lettering looks mostly correct on the decal but im pretty sure the later 70s Fender decals were all black with gold outline so im guessing this wasnt done at the factory.

Either way, you have a very sweet looking guitar. I would be very happy with it if i were you! Though maybe it needs a matching headstock...

[JSett]

My guess is this was a 70s MM neck that had some work done, possibly at the fender factory or by a very skilled luthier,

The gap at the bottom of the skunk stripe is pretty janky..squared off against the rounded route in the neck - unless that's what they all were like? I haven't had my hands on many 70s striped necks TBF. Looks unfinished or done relatively amateurishly...which wouldn't be unusual for late 70's Fender

Also, Fender wouldn't repair a neck, they'd just replace it with another one off the shelf.

I would say someone got ahold of a cheap old Musicmaster/Bronco/Mustang neck that had a broken truss rod and had someone fit (or fitted themselves) a new one in there via the back with a headstock access, then someone converted back to heel access (for whatever reason), slapped it on a refin'd old Jag body with a cluster of new, repro and vintage parts then it eventually made it into the OP's hands.

That's a total educated guess, mind you, and would be a very convoluted story. But stranger has been seen.

[Pacafeliz]

Haven't read it all or tried to open the pics, but I remember seeing/having WEBRIGHT stamps on late 60s/early 70s Jag necks. My 1st '75 Jag for sure did. Blocks and bound.