Please help me, for I am an idiot (1966 Jaguar content)

Discussion of vintage Jazzmasters, Jaguars, Bass VIs, Electric XIIs and any other offset-waist instruments.
Post Reply
User avatar
dropthebeat
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 190
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:52 pm
Location: NB, Canada

Please help me, for I am an idiot (1966 Jaguar content)

Post by dropthebeat » Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:48 pm

Hello. I bought this 1966 Jaguar in 2017. I think I posted about it then.

Image

It's mostly original (one changed strap button screw) and is in what I consider to be pretty fantastic shape for the year (guard is starting to warp a little bit, some pitting on the neck plate, typical checking/edge wear/what have you, a scrape or two on the logo-- but nothing catastrophic, and it looks, if I may, cool as hell). Aesthetically, dots & binding is Extremely My Thing. The burst is perfect. It's no lightweight, but it weighs less than a Jag could weigh (> 8.5 < 9). I basically love it.

Now, I'll offer the caveat before I continue that when things like wires and magnets enter the conversation, I become a complete buffoon. I can typically do an okay job of playing the guitar-- certainly not much more than okay, but still-- and can do my own setup work and all that. But pickups and electronics? Amplifiers? Impedance, inductance, henries, etc.? Nope. Hopeless dullard.

Another of my many flaws (stopped going to therapy, so thanks in advance for stepping in, OSG) is that I am simply unwilling to deal with any problems that come up in my life. When I bought this guitar five years ago, it didn't sound right (and I think I have sufficient context to establish what "right" is). So, rather than Actually Dealing With It like a big boy, it became relegated to the back of one of what is, somewhat shamefully, several guitar closets in my house.

A few weeks ago, motivated by both an interest in finally getting this thing up and running and-- in the spirit of full disclosure-- the dizzying market for vintage offsets right now (I paid what I'd call a decent price for a used AVRI at the time), I finally took this to a credible tech for a once-over. My concerns are that the pickups a) are weak (he measured at 5.00 and 5.49k - certainly not the weakest vintage Jag pickups in the world, but not, like, EMGs), b) are microphonic as anything, and c) sound out of phase in the middle position (which was, and remains, my biggest concern). He said there are no phase issues and everything is wired as it should be. I have no reason to believe the previous owner messed with it much and I trust my tech. So.

Here's a sound sample, if you'll forgive my absolutely dogshit playing (it's for illustrative purposes, not Shred Cred). Guitar(s) straight into interface, using a clean Marshall model in GarageBand. I have "narrated" what you're hearing, but it's neck/bridge/middle/middle with the strangle switch clean, then neck/bridge/middle with the fuzz side of a Keeley Loomer; it's contextualized somewhat in the back third by a CP Jazzmaster (The Classic Player Apologist has logged on) with no settings changed (and yes, I know it clips toward the end). You can hear how microphonic the pickups are as I have helpfully tapped on things (control plate, pickups). What you cannot hear is the incessant howling that would be occurring if I were plugged into an amp with any amount of volume and/or gain.

So... mostly just wondering: what's my best move here? I would like this to be a usable guitar, and I feel it deserves a fate better than being taken out of its case every few years and stared at, whether that fate is with me or someone else. I don't think swapping pickups is really the right choice, even in the short term. I see Lindy Fralin offers rewinding at what appears to be an extremely reasonable rate and every Fralin pickup I've heard or played has been exceptional. I know he repots as well. I'm assuming a rewind would resolve the strength/output issue, but would it correct (what I'm hearing as) the phase problem? Or, if I do wind up selling-- kind of a daunting prospect, to be honest, and I don't exactly live in the middle of a hot local vintage guitar market-- is it best to leave the guitar as original as possible, even with the wonky pickups?

Help a stupid, stupid man, OSG. A man who is paralyzed by the thought of making any kind of decision. Please.

User avatar
surfin_bird
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 1334
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 11:06 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Please help me, for I am an idiot (1966 Jaguar content)

Post by surfin_bird » Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:23 pm

It does sound weird... maybe ask a second opinion from another tech and send the audio clip to one of the legendary pickup builders what they think? I had my 64's pickups rewound and they sound amazing

User avatar
Marc
Expat
Expat
Posts: 1181
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:25 pm
Location: South West UK

Re: Please help me, for I am an idiot (1966 Jaguar content)

Post by Marc » Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:46 pm

It’s been a while since I owned a Jag but it does sound similar to the ‘68 I owned which were quite thin and were also very microphonic. I have to say it sounds great through the fuzz what are you using?

User avatar
MattK
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 3569
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:51 pm
Location: Hobart, Australia

Re: Please help me, for I am an idiot (1966 Jaguar content)

Post by MattK » Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:52 pm

I’ll have a listen later, not that I know enough to diagnose, but I will say please be kinder to yourself dude. The world is a pretty harsh place these days and feeling overwhelmed, not getting things done, and so on, is how most people are at the moment. I hope you enjoy that Jag, it may be that there’s a short or a bad pot leaking signal to ground but if you can, keeping it original will be a good investment.

User avatar
offabit
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:02 pm

Re: Please help me, for I am an idiot (1966 Jaguar content)

Post by offabit » Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:37 am

I wouldn't worry much about 5-5.5k reading on those. They sound plenty full individually. Did the tech take any images of the electronics for you?

User avatar
dropthebeat
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 190
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:52 pm
Location: NB, Canada

Re: Please help me, for I am an idiot (1966 Jaguar content)

Post by dropthebeat » Sun Jun 12, 2022 9:01 am

surfin_bird wrote:It does sound weird... maybe ask a second opinion from another tech and send the audio clip to one of the legendary pickup builders what they think? I had my 64's pickups rewound and they sound amazing
Good idea (and thanks!). My tech, as more of an acoustic guy, copped to being a bit out of his element with this one but had someone else in to take a look as well. He's very spec-driven (in a good way) and I think he wanted to be sure as well. I'll reach out to Lindy Fralin or someone to see what they think.
Marc wrote:it does sound similar to the ‘68 I owned which were quite thin and were also very microphonic. I have to say it sounds great through the fuzz what are you using?
Interesting! This is my first vintage Jag, having previously owned a couple of CIJs and a VM, but there are certainly plenty of vintage Jaguar players whose tones I've enjoyed. (My ideal Jaguar tone is someplace along the Rowland S. Howard - Bryce Dessner continuum.) The fuzz is a Keeley Loomer set to "full" - basically a Muff with the mids filled in. Feels a bit trite to be an offset player using the Kevin Shields pedal, but I don't really care for MBV so it's okay.
MatthewK wrote:I will say please be kinder to yourself dude. The world is a pretty harsh place these days and feeling overwhelmed, not getting things done, and so on, is how most people are at the moment. I hope you enjoy that Jag, it may be that there’s a short or a bad pot leaking signal to ground but if you can, keeping it original will be a good investment.
Thanks all around - appreciated. (Really.)
offabit wrote:I wouldn't worry much about 5-5.5k reading on those. They sound plenty full individually. Did the tech take any images of the electronics for you?
He didn't, but I can pull it apart in a bit and take some photos. And yeah-- I'm definitely happy with how the pickups sound on their own, especially the neck-- I'd kind of assumed whatever phase issues I was perceiving were related to the bridge pickup, but I know thin and reedy kind of comes with the Jaguar bridge PU territory.

Thanks again all!

User avatar
bulrich
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:22 am
Location: Providence, RI
Contact:

Re: Please help me, for I am an idiot (1966 Jaguar content)

Post by bulrich » Sun Jun 12, 2022 9:37 am

Both pickups do sound quite ice picky, esp the neck which should have a decent oomph of low end.
I would consider rewinds. It will hopefully open up the sonic spectrum of the guitar more.
I have a 07 Thinskin JM that I hated the awful jumbo frets on. I’d take it out try and get used to it and then return it to the case. Finally I had a proper fret job done to bring the frets down and it’s made the guitar every bit as good as I had initially expected.
It will be completely worth the expense and effort if it makes you want to pick it up and play it.
And R S Howard…. ❤️❤️❤️

User avatar
JSett
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 8802
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:33 pm
Location: Old Hampshire, Old England

Re: Please help me, for I am an idiot (1966 Jaguar content)

Post by JSett » Sun Jun 12, 2022 9:57 am

Okay, I have 2 vintage jaguars at present, and recently sold 2 others (64/65/65/67) and can give some input here.

The pickups sounds pretty much about right, sonically. Maybe a touch brighter than mine (but that could easily be amp settings as well). Jaguars are bright sounding guitars for sure. The pickups in my '64 were just as microphonic as yours...and I had the same problem with uncontrollable squeal at any decent volume. I sent them to be wax-potted and they are now utterly perfect and silent. No feedback even with a cranked Bassman being fed a RAT. My '67 had exactly the same thing. Potting them cured it completely. My '65 came with some unknown pickups in that were also squealy as sin. Putting in some properly potted AV65 units solved that issue. The other '65 that I sold had fresh rewinds and were already potted. Silent.

TLDR: No need for a rewind, they're hot enough, just get the pickups potted (I always ask for a 'heavy potting' for what that's worth).

The middle position does indeed sound out-of-phase to me. A quick picture of the underneath of both the selector plate and the rhythm plate with the wires clearly visible in their solder locations would probably answer this question (and would be a super easy fix).

I never used a tone control on a guitar until I owned a Jaguar, but it's amazing what a 1/4 turn of that can do to tame the treble on these things.
Silly Rabbit, don't you know scooped mids are for kids?

User avatar
offabit
PAT PEND
PAT PEND
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2021 4:02 pm

Re: Please help me, for I am an idiot (1966 Jaguar content)

Post by offabit » Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:58 am

You could check polarity on the pickups with a low power fridge magnet, see if they are the same or not. Maybe they are wired fine but out of phase magnetically for some reason (e.g. factory mistake).
Last edited by offabit on Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
MattK
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 3569
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:51 pm
Location: Hobart, Australia

Re: Please help me, for I am an idiot (1966 Jaguar content)

Post by MattK » Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:10 pm

I finally listened to the sample (playing was just fine by me!). I'm wondering if a clean Marshall is the right pair in Garageband, you might find that the pickups in a Jag are sufficiently different as to need different amp/tone settings to a JM.
A couple of things to suggest - it may be that there is a short involving the tone cap, you could investigate how the tone control behaves to see if maybe it's set to "full on treble" all the time. Another thing, how does the rhythm circuit sound, is it a totally different animal? And lastly the combination of weak output plus super microphonic suggests maybe the foam underneath the pickups has crumbled - they might need to be pushed up from below to work properly.
Definitely out of phase in the middle position, but I think some Jags came that way from the factory? or it could be a mistake in production of course. You could presumably test which wire is grounded to the claw. Or maybe you have a short to the claw in one pickup.

User avatar
DaddyDom
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:54 pm

Re: Please help me, for I am an idiot (1966 Jaguar content)

Post by DaddyDom » Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:08 pm

Oh my lord "Jaguar with Fuzz" !!!!
:-* :-* :-*

User avatar
kapepper
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 326
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:51 am

Re: Please help me, for I am an idiot (1966 Jaguar content)

Post by kapepper » Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:32 am

That doesn’t sound that far away from my 66
But yes more microphonic then mine

Post Reply