What makes a vintage guitar one of the good ones?

Discussion of vintage Jazzmasters, Jaguars, Bass VIs, Electric XIIs and any other offset-waist instruments.
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Mechanical Birds
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What makes a vintage guitar one of the good ones?

Post by Mechanical Birds » Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:28 pm

I was watching the Nels Cline RigRundown for the 1,000th time and the part where he is showing off Watt, he says that he trashed it countless times before ever realizing that it was “one of the good ones.”

I’ve heard this in countless other exchanges and I’m curious about whatever consensus there is on what denotes a guitar - any guitar really, but most curious about the old originals - as “one of the good ones.”

Obviously stuff like fretwork, neck pockets, etc. were a little different across every guitar that Fender’s ever made, or at least pre-1980. As we’ve all seen or heard a billion times about factory setups being shit, most of the stuff I can think of fall into that category as well; a non-structural flaw that can be fixed by any luthier during a typical setup. But I’m curious how others measure their guitars - do you have a list of preferences or measurements you take into account when fishing for a good or bad version of a guitar? Does the turn of phrase to you mean nothing more than what a specific person’s preferences are and this question and thread are pointless?

Either way, let me know about it, please :)
Last edited by Mechanical Birds on Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What makes a vintage guitar one of the good ones?

Post by JSett » Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:30 pm

I've always found the ones with the most play-wear are often the best ones. Not 'beat-up from mistreatment' but honest play wear. If someone put enough hours into playing something enough that they wore through the damn finish then there's a solid chance it was a good sounding instrument - good enough for them not to get rid of it at least. Obviously theres ones that have been good but babied, or ones that got shoved under a bed by a bored kid, but those are an unknown....could be a crap one, could be a diamond. No way of knowing until you get your hands on it.

As to actual build quality...Fenders are indeed all over the place as we know. The neck pockets on some of my old ones have been insane but I don't think that even affects the sound all that much - a 1/8mm gap or a 4mm gap is still a gap & the main contact point is against the body and that's the part that counts. My 64 and 65 are 6 months apart on the neck dates and the difference in resonance is wild. Neither are dead, but the 65 is substantially louder acoustically and more bassy. The '64 sounds better in a band mix though (and has clearly been used heavily).

So, my rule of thumb is generally to avoid anything in mint or extremely good condition. Not only are those normally more expensive anyway, but then you've also got the worry of not dinging it up. I look for the most fucked-up and thrashed ones I can and spend the money I save on either more guitars or Tequila :w00t:
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Re: What makes a vintage guitar one of the good ones?

Post by T70 » Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:32 pm

I’m personally of the opinion that unlike acoustics, electrics are pretty consistent. I’d rather have one that looks like the owner knew how to maintain it (full pocket shim, if refretted, well done, etc).

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Re: What makes a vintage guitar one of the good ones?

Post by seenoevil II » Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:22 pm

If I recall the rig rundown in question correctly, then I believe all he really meant by "one of the good ones" was that it was a slab boarded JM from 58-60. I'm not sure he meant too much more beyond that.

My experience with vintage instruments is pretty limited, but the general rule I've taken away is that (not unlike people themselves) a LOT can happen to a guitar in 50-60-70 years. Finding a guitar that made it through the decades without some really ruinous modification or attempted repair is not easy. Some materials weren't formulated for the long haul. Some designs and executions just couldn't handle the stresses involved for a sustained half century plus.

Basically, what I'm saying is a "good one" is like finding a super healthy, vital, and attractive 60 year old. There's plenty of them out there. But typically, that means they couldn't have spent those 60 years swilling booze, eating Big Macs, smoking, and skipping the gym. It also means they were fortunate enough to avoid any really major illnesses or injuries.

But then, the Gretsch Sparkle Jet I played that some bozo had drilled dowels into the neck joint and whose drum wrap top was peeling in several spots was one of my favorite guitars to play ever. $8,000 good? For me? No. But still really really good.

In brief, it's not about which are the good ones so much about which aren't the bad ones.
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Re: What makes a vintage guitar one of the good ones?

Post by Tiny C » Sat Jun 25, 2022 9:27 am

There's definitely a risk you could run into the things Johnny describes about Fender quality issues around fit of a neck pocket, etc., and all bets are off when parts have been swapped out, but in general a certain model Fender from a certain year ought to have certain characteristics, so it seems pretty low-risk that you'd buy a vintage Fender electric guitar that turns out to be an irredeemable clunker. :)

I agree with the thought that this is a much bigger issue with acoustics. When I was buying a Gibson J-45 in the early 2000s, it was wild how much variability there was from one guitar to the next, coming from the same factory within the same general timeframe. I don't get the physics of wood and resonance but it makes more sense to me that one guitar's top or sides could have grain that resonates a bit more than than the next, or the gluing or the fit of the bracing could be just a bit a bit better on one guitar than on another. And it's a lot harder to tinker with an acoustic that doesn't sound good than it is to get an okay-ish electric guitar sounding great.

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Re: What makes a vintage guitar one of the good ones?

Post by fuzzjunkie » Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:27 am

I always want the neck to feel a certain way. The frets, the shoulder, the taper to the nut, all have to feel a certain way otherwise I put it back. I don’t even strum it.

If the neck feels right, then I play it unplugged. It has to have a certain amount of resonance. For me, these have usually been the lighter guitars, but not always. I want to hear the notes project acoustically and the body vibration feels alive. The lack of those characteristics in every ’80s Strat I ever picked up is why I never owned a Strat.

If the guitar passes those tests, then it’s worth plugging in, but I usually stay away from the minty vintage examples unless it’s been refined because I don’t want to be the one to ruin a collector grade guitar.

Finally, the pickups have to sound a certain way. A Tele bridge pickup should be full and bright, but not an ice pick. A Jazzmaster should sound a certain way, as should a Gretsch.

Outside of a 1956 Telecaster and a 1960 Jazzmaster, my favorite sounding and playing vintage guitar was a 1954 Gretsch Duo Jet. I currently own a 1963 Jazzmaster, which is the 3rd best I have ever played, and a 1961 Telecaster, which is a good enough guitar that Jimmy Vaughn wanted to buy it off me. I also have an early ‘62 Jaguar that I kept over a few others because it’s darker sounding than the typical Jaguar.

*Edit: I once played a museum grade ‘59 Jazzmaster that looked, felt and sounded like a brand new, off the shelf American Standard. It was a nice enough guitar, but completely lacking in “mojo” or “vintage feel” or whatever you want to call it. It wasn’t a terrible guitar, it was “just another guitar.”

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Re: What makes a vintage guitar one of the good ones?

Post by JamesSGBrown » Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:18 am

I think reissues are better than vintage, but what makes a “good” one to me are the neck pocket fit, weight, and solidness of the bridge (ie are the height adjustment screws rusted to fuck)?

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Re: What makes a vintage guitar one of the good ones?

Post by camilonava27 » Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:54 pm

JamesSGBrown wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:18 am
I think reissues are better than vintage, but what makes a “good” one to me are the neck pocket fit, weight, and solidness of the bridge (ie are the height adjustment screws rusted to fuck)?
I can’t disagree with you,, modern playability and vintage vibes. Reissues all the way

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Re: What makes a vintage guitar one of the good ones?

Post by øøøøøøø » Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:17 am

The human mind being what it is, a lot of it is “does the guitar have attributes that bias me into expecting it to sound good?”

Does it look cool (e.g. charming wear or patina), does it come from a brand and time period that’s widely considered to be special, and does it feel good to play are probably the three best predictors of whether or not someone will think a guitar is “one of the good ones.”

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Re: What makes a vintage guitar one of the good ones?

Post by Sweetfinger » Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:18 am

What makes a vintage guitar a "good one" are the same things that make a newer instrument a good one.
Every guitar is an assembly of components, with the biggest being made (usually) of wood. Every tree and even parts within a tree are different, so even identical guitars made on the same day from wood from the same tree can sound different.
Those differences are subjective. One player's tight, focused bottom end is another's tinny high end. As someone who has played quite a lot of guitars, my experience has been that in ten identical guitars, two will sound noticeably better to you, whatever "better" means for you, and two will sound like duds. The remaining six will be perfectly fine, unremarkable, examples that you don't hat, but don't love, either. Truly exceptional ones may be one in twenty.

Aside from sound quality, there is playability. Again, that quality is subjective. Some players like a higher action, some like it stupidly low. A brand new guitar may not be quite setup to the player's preference and an older instrument may have been setup to some previous owner's personal taste. Setup and maintenance are things that should be done if you like the sound of a guitar that comes your way.

The other part of the physical equation is the specs. It's interesting how just a slight difference in neck profile can shift your hand mechanics from a neck that's comfortable to play all night to one that is a chore. Same thing with body depth, shape, where the instrument hangs on the strap, everything. There are guitars I love the look and sound of, that I just couldn't get along with on stage.

For sure, there are some vintage instruments that have no modern equivalent, or haven't been exactingly reissued or reproduced. You can easily buy twenty different versions of a 1960s Fender Strat pickup that all sound identical to the real thing. You cannot buy anything that is a correct new production Franz, Guild, Kay, or EKO pickup. The Dearmond pickups used by Gretsch have not been accurately reproduced. Maybe the Duncan Custom Shop version is closer than what they currently make for Gretsch, I don't know. If you want any Dearmond pickup that came on an old Harmony made guitar, those have never been reproduced other than a very small number by boutique winders. The majority have never been reproduced. If you like old Harmonys, there are no modern equivalents in the way that you could buy a new Tele or Strat, Jaguar, Jazzmaster, or Les Paul.

Play a bunch of guitars, learn what you like, and look for a "good" one.

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Re: What makes a vintage guitar one of the good ones?

Post by JSett » Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:27 pm

Does it look cool?

Does it sound good?

Does it inspire you to play?

Is it within your budget?


Those are the only really important things I've found with old gear.
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Re: What makes a vintage guitar one of the good ones?

Post by PorkyPrimeCut » Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:53 pm

johnnysomersett wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:27 pm
Does it look cool?

Does it sound good?

Does it inspire you to play?

Is it within your budget?


Those are the only really important things I've found with old gear.
Does it feel right?

There's nothing quite like a nicely worn in neck, the same way as there's nothing more annoying than a sticky one.
Different neck profiles seem to appeal to different people too. Some like 'em chunky. Some like 'em skinny.
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Re: What makes a vintage guitar one of the good ones?

Post by JSett » Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:04 pm

PorkyPrimeCut wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:53 pm
johnnysomersett wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:27 pm
Does it look cool?

Does it sound good?

Does it inspire you to play?

Is it within your budget?


Those are the only really important things I've found with old gear.
Does it feel right?
Ahh, yes. I meant to include that one (the trouble with half typing it then going to bed, then finishing when you get back up :D )

Plenty of old guitars I've had in my hands that have ticked all the above boxes, but have ended up on the chopping block, have been because of the neck shape (70s Mustang) or overall weight (a couple of LPs and my old T40).
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