MIDI drum input device recommendations, please

[marqueemoon]

I thought about posting this in Recording, but that subforum sees a bit less activity, and this is as much an instrument question as anything so...

What do y'all like for this? I've been muddling through for a very long time programming drums with an ancient Oxygen 8 MIDI controller. I'm a terrible keyboard player, so if I'm putting down an organ part or whatever I know I'm going to need to fix stuff regardless, but it's gotten very frustrating for drums. Too many timing/feel problems. I'd love to be able to put down more complete parts and only fix glaring issues. Unlike with keys where I'm outright terrible I'm a so-so drummer, so it's really obvious to me when the feel is not right.

I don't have money or space for a full electronic drum kit. I think an ideal situation would either be a 32 key controller with decent velocity sensitive pads built in (to conserve desk space) or something separate I could throw on a stand and hit with sticks.

I'm using Garageband now, but plan to move to Logic in the next year or so. No onboard sounds are necessary as long as this theoretical device can talk to the DAW I'm using. I'd prefer an old school MIDI connection over USB.

[Bradley-Jazz]

Hi, I need to preface this by saying I’m not a drummer at all, and have only used MIDI in a pretty basic way, but….

I’d like to learn to drum, or at least hit things with sticks to make noise, and I don’t have space for a full electronic drum kit either. After a bit of research, I went for the Alesis Sample Pad Pro Alesis site. I have it set up on a stand, with second hand kick and hihat pedals, and found it lots of fun, and certainly whackable. I’ve predominantly used sounds on the device (I loaded new ones on so card too), but have briefly had it linked to my DAW - it has usb and 5 pin midi.

There can be crosstalk between the pads, but playing with the sensitivity of the individual pads sorted that for me. You can add pads too, if you want a separate snare pad, for example.

[UlricvonCatalyst]

+1 on the Alesis Samplepad, but if you want cheaper, Yamaha do a couple of mini-electronic drum kits which you should be able to find cheap. Not 100% sure, but I think they also have MIDI.

If you want dearer there's the Roland Octapad.

[marqueemoon]

Thanks for the suggestions!

Can anyone comment on the quality/sensitivity of the Arturia trigger pads? The Minilab 3 ticks a lot of boxes for me as it would give me trigger pads and 25 keys and has an old school 8 pin MIDI out in addition to USB. It might be fun to get something like a desktop analog synth module down the road.

I like the idea of a larger thing I can whack with sticks too, but as noted the better ones are spendy. For my application crosstalk isn’t a huge deal though. I can just edit out the odd stray note.

[OffYourFace]

This may not be helpful but I do drums Two ways.

First, I can't play drums to save my life.

-I use my Akai MPC Live 2 and have a ton of samples I made from vintage drum machines loaded into an external drive that sits in the MPC's compartment underneath. I have it set to quantize everything as I play the parts and then I move the MIDI notes around on the piano roll to get the feel i want. I like the pads on the MPC but it took me a minute to get used to them, probably because I had never used an MPC before. There's plenty of levels of velocity to get the feel and sound I want. There are ways to do this with much cheaper setups but the MPC Live 2 has become a huge part of my 'workflow' and it feels like an instrument to me now.

-Drum Loop libraries. I have a large collection of drum loops and can often find the beat pattern I need/want. A good set of loops will include fills for each pattern. It's not cool or sexy to use the loops but it's fast and the sound quality is always better than I can do on my own. I have two music projects atm and this method fits my needs perfectly in one of them. The only pain is tempo so I'm always having to warp/time stretch the loop which sometimes requires going in and making edits in addition to the stretching.

[marqueemoon]

This may not be helpful but I do drums Two ways.

First, I can't play drums to save my life.

-I use my Akai MPC Live 2 and have a ton of samples I made from vintage drum machines loaded into an external drive that sits in the MPC's compartment underneath. I have it set to quantize everything as I play the parts and then I move the MIDI notes around on the piano roll to get the feel i want. I like the pads on the MPC but it took me a minute to get used to them, probably because I had never used an MPC before. There's plenty of levels of velocity to get the feel and sound I want. There are ways to do this with much cheaper setups but the MPC Live 2 has become a huge part of my 'workflow' and it feels like an instrument to me now.

-Drum Loop libraries. I have a large collection of drum loops and can often find the beat pattern I need/want. A good set of loops will include fills for each pattern. It's not cool or sexy to use the loops but it's fast and the sound quality is always better than I can do on my own. I have two music projects atm and this method fits my needs perfectly in one of them. The only pain is tempo so I'm always having to warp/time stretch the loop which sometimes requires going in and making edits in addition to the stretching.

I really don’t like moving drum hits around in post much. Drum parts with good feel rarely line up exactly with a grid. I would rather play them and stitch together the best bits.

I have not messed with loop libraries. I usually have a really good idea of the drum feel I want, so trying to get it with something off the shelf sounds tedious.

I have made my own loops of my acoustic drumming for recordings a few times and that’s turned out well. I usually mangle them in some way.

I have a kit set up in the basement, but usually my only time to work on stuff late is late at night, so between that, the meh acoustics of the room, and the extra hassle of micing drums and having to be drummer and engineer simultaneously I’m not recording a lot of real drums these days.

[Embenny]

I have made my own loops of my acoustic drumming for recordings a few times and that’s turned out well. I usually mangle them in some way.

I have a kit set up in the basement, but usually my only time to work on stuff late is late at night, so between that, the meh acoustics of the room, and the extra hassle of micing drums and having to be drummer and engineer simultaneously I’m not recording a lot of real drums these days.

Wait a minute, you actually know how to play drums?

Isn't the obvious move an electric kit, then? Even the cheap ones can output MIDI, letting you use a VST like EZDrummer to get great sounds out of it, and the late night drumming won't be an issue at all.

I just ordered an electric kit yesterday, myself, with the goal of ignoring the internal sounds completely and just using it as a MIDI input device.

Here is a dude on a random $1k Alesis kit triggering EZDrummer. You can go cheaper or more expensive, the differences are mainly in feel, look, and reliability since the good sounds themselves are all in software. Even the $5k Roland kits with the amazing pads and cymbals have garbage built-in sounds in the modules when compared to drum sample libraries.

If you really don't want to set up a whole kit, then there are options like the Alesis Strike Multipad. 9 pads you can program to trigger samples, but can also use to input MIDI data. You can even connect any electric drum kick pedal to it (it's got a couple of inputs for external pads like a kick and hihat) and use it as a miniature velocity-sensitive e-kit.

I'm talking about these types of kick pedals by the way:



They range from $50-$350 from brands like Yamaha and Roland. The more expensive, the better the action on them, but even the cheapest ones will let you input kick parts intuitively and leave your hands free for the multipad.

Roland and Yamaha also make similar format MIDI multipads, but I find the Alesis to have the best price/feature ratio.

Edit: just realized you said you don't have room for a full electric kit. The Multipad is 100% the way to go, then. Personally, I'd sell the acoustic kit and put an electric kit in its place...size issue solved. What good is your acoustic kit if your best hours for playing music are ones where you can't be using it?

You could theoretically stick mesh heads and low velocity cymbals on the kit, then mount some drum triggers on them, but that will be A) louder than an electric kit, possibly still too loud for nighttime, and B) sacrificing its ability to be an acoustic kit anyway.

[marqueemoon]

I have made my own loops of my acoustic drumming for recordings a few times and that’s turned out well. I usually mangle them in some way.

I have a kit set up in the basement, but usually my only time to work on stuff late is late at night, so between that, the meh acoustics of the room, and the extra hassle of micing drums and having to be drummer and engineer simultaneously I’m not recording a lot of real drums these days.

Wait a minute, you actually know how to play drums?

Isn't the obvious move an electric kit, then? Even the cheap ones can output MIDI, letting you use a VST like EZDrummer to get great sounds out of it, and the late night drumming won't be an issue at all.

I just ordered an electric kit yesterday, myself, with the goal of ignoring the internal sounds completely and just using it as a MIDI input device.

Here is a dude on a random $1k Alesis kit triggering EZDrummer. You can go cheaper or more expensive, the differences are mainly in feel, look, and reliability since the good sounds themselves are all in software. Even the $5k Roland kits with the amazing pads and cymbals have garbage built-in sounds in the modules when compared to drum sample libraries.

If you really don't want to set up a whole kit, then there are options like the Alesis Strike Multipad. 9 pads you can program to trigger samples, but can also use to input MIDI data. You can even connect any electric drum kick pedal to it (it's got a couple of inputs for external pads like a kick and hihat) and use it as a miniature velocity-sensitive e-kit.

I'm talking about these types of kick pedals by the way:



They range from $50-$350 from brands like Yamaha and Roland. The more expensive, the better the action on them, but even the cheapest ones will let you input kick parts intuitively and leave your hands free for the multipad.

Roland and Yamaha also make similar format MIDI multipads, but I find the Alesis to have the best price/feature ratio.

Edit: just realized you said you don't have room for a full electric kit. The Multipad is 100% the way to go, then. Personally, I'd sell the acoustic kit and put an electric kit in its place...size issue solved. What good is your acoustic kit if your best hours for playing music are ones where you can't be using it?

You could theoretically stick mesh heads and low velocity cymbals on the kit, then mount some drum triggers on them, but that will be A) louder than an electric kit, possibly still too loud for nighttime, and B) sacrificing its ability to be an acoustic kit anyway.

My son has taken some drum lessons, so the acoustic kit is set up mainly for him, though he rarely plays it.

The mesh heads/triggers idea could potentially work, but yeah still probably too loud for late night.

If I thought my kid would play an e-kit more than the acoustic one that would make the decision much easier, but I seriously doubt it.

I have a shared practice space about a mile from my house that actually has decent acoustics and good sounding drums set up that are fair game to play, but recording there means packing almost everything but the drums in and out.
Plus it’s in use almost every night.

Anyway, it’s an ongoing struggle.

[andy_tchp]

I just ordered an electric kit yesterday, myself, with the goal of ignoring the internal sounds completely and just using it as a MIDI input device.

Curious - What did you end up with? Any good? I'm mulling over small MIDI input devices ie sample pad or keyboards vs electronic drums.

[Larry Mal]

I'm using Garageband now, but plan to move to Logic in the next year or so.

May I ask why you are not just using Drummer, the built in instrument in Garage Band and to a much greater extent Logic? It'll generate realistic drum parts much more quickly and easily than you can do with a MIDI keyboard or the piano roll. Some people can use touch pad interfaces and play really realistic drum parts but if you can't- I can't- then Drummer is really the way to go.

I can play drums, but don't have a kit or an electronic kit any more. I think about getting one. But, Logic's Drummer is totally fast for getting parts down that you can compose music to, and later I layer in other samples and tweak it.

This song, for instance, has four distinct parts to it, and I layer in the electronic and percussion sounds heavier at the start and then bring in the acoustic samples later in the song.

Drummer is great, although I might start stripping it back and just writing straight electronic beats again with no attempt to make it seem like a drummer. Still, Logic's Drummer can let you be very creative, that song above is not something I planned out at all, I just put down four different sections of beats and then did stuff over it. I like how this one turned out, I don't always, still I like being able to write music and not fuck around with piano rolls or MIDI keyboards.

[marqueemoon]

I'm using Garageband now, but plan to move to Logic in the next year or so.

May I ask why you are not just using Drummer, the built in instrument in Garage Band and to a much greater extent Logic? It'll generate realistic drum parts much more quickly and easily than you can do with a MIDI keyboard or the piano roll. Some people can use touch pad interfaces and play really realistic drum parts but if you can't- I can't- then Drummer is really the way to go.

I can play drums, but don't have a kit or an electronic kit any more. I think about getting one. But, Logic's Drummer is totally fast for getting parts down that you can compose music to, and later I layer in other samples and tweak it.

This song, for instance, has four distinct parts to it, and I layer in the electronic and percussion sounds heavier at the start and then bring in the acoustic samples later in the song.

Drummer is great, although I might start stripping it back and just writing straight electronic beats again with no attempt to make it seem like a drummer. Still, Logic's Drummer can let you be very creative, that song above is not something I planned out at all, I just put down four different sections of beats and then did stuff over it. I like how this one turned out, I don't always, still I like being able to write music and not fuck around with piano rolls or MIDI keyboards.

At the risk of sounding too much like an artiste I like to be intentional about everything I do, including fake drum parts. What I end up doing is usually ultra-simple.

I also usually write drum patterns to songs instead of the other way around. I have tried Drummer a fair bit and it’s never given things the feel I’m looking for.

[Larry Mal]

At the risk of sounding too much like an artiste I like to be intentional about everything I do, including fake drum parts. What I end up doing is usually ultra-simple.

I also usually write drum patterns to songs instead of the other way around. I have tried Drummer a fair bit and it’s never given things the feel I’m looking for.

So I'm about out of helpful things to suggest, but I have one more thing I tried back in the day and it didn't work out for me. I don't remember why!

But take a look at the TrapKat and you'll get an idea where I'm going. This is another MIDI trigger but with an interface that works well with sticks. So it's not a keyboard, it's not pure piano roll, nor fingerpads or a full kit.

Programming basic beats on drums is fairly easy but drum fills are harder. I could do them well on a kit with sticks in my hand and thought that this might be a solution around that. Didn't work for me- although I would try it again. Just a thought.

[marqueemoon]

At the risk of sounding too much like an artiste I like to be intentional about everything I do, including fake drum parts. What I end up doing is usually ultra-simple.

I also usually write drum patterns to songs instead of the other way around. I have tried Drummer a fair bit and it’s never given things the feel I’m looking for.

So I'm about out of helpful things to suggest, but I have one more thing I tried back in the day and it didn't work out for me. I don't remember why!

But take a look at the TrapKat and you'll get an idea where I'm going. This is another MIDI trigger but with an interface that works well with sticks. So it's not a keyboard, it's not pure piano roll, nor fingerpads or a full kit.

Programming basic beats on drums is fairly easy but drum fills are harder. I could do them well on a kit with sticks in my hand and thought that this might be a solution around that. Didn't work for me- although I would try it again. Just a thought.

Wow. $3K for the Trapkat.

At this point I’m leaning towards the Arturia Minilab 3. My Oxygen 8 is like 20 years old at this point, and that would give me basic pads and likely a better keyboard in something portable.

Leaning away from a pad thing for budget and space reasons.

[Larry Mal]

Wow. $3K for the Trapkat.

At this point I’m leaning towards the Arturia Minilab 3. My Oxygen 8 is like 20 years old at this point, and that would give me basic pads and likely a better keyboard in something portable.

Leaning away from a pad thing for budget and space reasons.

Yeah, TrapKats position themselves as top of the line, professional grade stuff. There are cheaper versions of the same concept.

No idea. It's a complicated thing. I tried to get into Native Instruments' Maschine and found the workflow very cumbersome but the sounds excellent. Maybe I'll try again some time.

[Embenny]

I just ordered an electric kit yesterday, myself, with the goal of ignoring the internal sounds completely and just using it as a MIDI input device.

Curious - What did you end up with? Any good? I'm mulling over small MIDI input devices ie sample pad or keyboards vs electronic drums.

I got the Millenium MPS 1000 from Thomann, because the "80s Casio keyboard" look of skeleton kits really turns me off, and I'm not nearly enough of a handyman to tackle an "A to E conversion" of a cheap drum kit.

I'm still in the middle of building my studio, so I've only set up the kit to test that it worked before the return window closes, and haven't had time to get in to optimizing its VST connectivity, but so far I'm extremely pleased. It looks and feels so much more like an acoustic kit than the Roland and Alesis skeleton kits I've tried in stores and at my bandmate's house. And there are enough different videos online to convince me that it works well with VSTs.

The only thing I ordered beyond the stock kit was a set of black mesh heads, also from Millenium, because they were all like $3-$5 each and no extra shipping while ordering the kit, and the white heads with the big "Millenium" written across them look kinda cheap and goofy to me. The black ones have a small logo that looks much more reasonable, and I think the black will look killer on the kick drum especially. For an extra $20 I figured why not? Any other brand of mesh head would cost 5-6x as much to replace everything, and the black ones should, at worst, be neither better nor worse than the stock ones in terms of durability and feel.

With shipping from Germany, tax, and duties, it came out to just under $1800 CAD IIRC. You get an absolute toy of a Roland kit for that kind of money here, like the ones with kick and hi hat pedals that aren't even physically connected to anything, and with horrible and tiny pads like a 10" snare. I'm extremely pleased with my decision so far, but I also don't have space constraints, so the bulk of an acoustic kit isn't a problem. But it's a hell of a lot prettier to look at, the kick and hat action is real and mechanical in nature (functional but as cheap as cheap can be - hardware upgrades may be in its future as my drumming improves), and the pads are nearly as big as a small kit. The snare is 13" and I'd have liked 14", but my old drummer used a 13" piccolo snare for everything, so it's not like it's unreasonable.