Watch out for Waves...

Get that song on tape! Errr... disk?
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Larry Mal
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Watch out for Waves...

Post by Larry Mal » Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:11 pm

They've just gone to a subscription only model, but I'm not sure what that means. I actually spent $100 recently upgrading some of my Waves plug ins, and if that is all money down the drain, they've lost me.

I have to read the fine print here to see how I feel about it, but just a heads up.
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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Embenny » Sun Mar 26, 2023 5:25 pm

Brutal. Looks like they've eliminated all perpetual licenses, meaning you'll no longer be able to update your currently-owned library of plugins. If they stop being compatible with a future DAW or OS upgrade, your only choice is to pay them the $15/$25 per month.

They say that customers who own bundles of plugins can get "up to 2 months free" - meaning at most a $50 discount.

I'm glad I stopped using Waves' stuff years ago. What a dick move. Subscriptions are the new business model everyone seems to be moving to, though. It makes much less sense for plugins than it does for DAWs, IMO.
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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Larry Mal » Sun Mar 26, 2023 5:59 pm

Embenny wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 5:25 pm
Brutal. Looks like they've eliminated all perpetual licenses, meaning you'll no longer be able to update your currently-owned library of plugins. If they stop being compatible with a future DAW or OS upgrade, your only choice is to pay them the $15/$25 per month.

They say that customers who own bundles of plugins can get "up to 2 months free" - meaning at most a $50 discount.

I'm glad I stopped using Waves' stuff years ago. What a dick move. Subscriptions are the new business model everyone seems to be moving to, though. It makes much less sense for plugins than it does for DAWs, IMO.
I'm honestly not really sure what to make of it, well... that "up to two months free" is a fucking insult.

Firstly, Waves is probably less necessary than ever, they are a luxury, and not an essential. For the barebones stuff like EQ, reverb and compression, almost any DAW already has built in capabilities that are as good as what Waves has to offer.

Waves has some nice hardware emulations, but so does everyone else... I probably have like five 1176 plug ins right now and I didn't really seek them out. Is Waves that much better?

I'll have a lot of past projects what when I open them there will be dead plug ins. I don't really know if that's going to make me want to subscribe, though, since once a company radically changes their business model from one I didn't have a problem with to one I don't like much it tends to make it so I don't trust them any further.

I think it's a bad power play on their part and I don't know if it will work. I probably will not support them any further.

On the other hand, though, if someone was more or less starting out, $25 a month for all of Waves' stuff isn't a bad choice to make. You have to wonder if that will be worth it at the cost of alienating all of the customers they currently have and are going to piss off.

They say it takes a lot more to create a new customer than it does to keep an old one.

On the other other hand, Waves is in a box. Their core offerings are no longer unique, better or even necessary, and they've pretty much done everything one could expect. There's not much else for them to do, really, so monetizing their current customer base might just be the last roll of the dice they even have.
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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Steadyriot. » Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:56 am

Larry Mal wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:11 pm
They've just gone to a subscription only model, but I'm not sure what that means. I actually spent $100 recently upgrading some of my Waves plug ins, and if that is all money down the drain, they've lost me.

I have to read the fine print here to see how I feel about it, but just a heads up.
Is this actually legal? Is a company actually allowed to sell you software they know will not be available as such in a few weeks / months?
Seems like this is a shady business practice in the least.
I don't think this abides by EU consumer laws..
"If someone duetted with a Bald Eagle, they could rule the Country charts from here to eternity." ~shadowplay

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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:22 am

Steadyriot. wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:56 am
Larry Mal wrote:
Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:11 pm
They've just gone to a subscription only model, but I'm not sure what that means. I actually spent $100 recently upgrading some of my Waves plug ins, and if that is all money down the drain, they've lost me.

I have to read the fine print here to see how I feel about it, but just a heads up.
Is this actually legal? Is a company actually allowed to sell you software they know will not be available as such in a few weeks / months?
Seems like this is a shady business practice in the least.
I don't think this abides by EU consumer laws..
Well, I've read hundreds of comments on Gearspace, Facebook, and Waves' own forum. I have not read a single positive thing about this change.

I have read some comments questioning the legality of it, apparently this is some wording in the EULA that says that the software can be upgraded at any time, which this subscription model might contradict.

I have a lot of Waves stuff, but mainly out of complacence, and some of it is kind of unique, like the Vocal Rider. At the same time, though, there's stuff out there that is better and I am going to let my Waves investment lapse and won't be supporting them any more.

I don't want a subscription model. If I decide that I don't want to or can't spend the money, all that software goes dead and my projects have to be re-done. There are certainly worse problems to have, but I am not making any lifelong commitment to a plug-in company.

There's Softtube, Klevgrand, and a lot of other software creators that are as good or better than Waves. DDMF is another, and NuGen is a big favorite of mine. I've already bought the Valhalla reverbs and they are fantastic. The built in Logic plugins are as good as Waves ever was when there are direct equivalents. Not to mention that Native Instruments has a full suite of plugins now and I have all the IK Multimedia stuff also- I really don't know why Waves is thinking to make a power move like this at a time when they are facing more competition than they ever have.

I do have Waves virtual instruments, but I guess I'll let those lapse. It's a shame, but maybe it'll be an opportunity.
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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by øøøøøøø » Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:13 am

It’s annoying, but expect everyone to transition to this model eventually, and most of the transitions are likely to be as messy as this one.

The writing has been on the wall for quite some time.

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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Larry Mal » Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:36 am

Yeah, I'm not totally against a subscription model or anything, and honestly it's not like we weren't already paying more or less a subscription fee by having to update all this stuff.

However I feel that Waves has done a very bad job with this, they've basically invalidated everyone's previous support and with no warning. Not to mention the two tier scheme they have seems very annoying, if there's one plug in that you depend on that lives in the higher priced tier then you will have to spend an extra $120 a year just for that one.

I suppose I preferred Waves' previous model where I could select the plug ins I wanted from amongst the ones that I have a hard time understanding why they exist at all, other than Waves needing to appear as a dynamic company. The One Knob series for instance is bizarre to me, and the King's Microphone is just... weird.

My suspicion is that Waves has taken advantage of Apple's move to the silicon chips and knows that a lot of people, like myself, are all of the sudden on a new platform and need to upgrade the plugins. That's what I was doing, actually, but now I can't and wouldn't anyway. I would bet that while Macs are less common overall they count for a very large percentage of Waves users.

Anyway, I don't personally care that much, and it's possible that I might support Waves again. And like I mentioned, if I was starting out this might be great, however I'm irritated that all the money I already spent is invalidated and I'm annoyed at them trying to force me into their system.

Avid had a very hard time with the Pro Tools subscription plan and I think had to back off from it. From what I can see, Waves is not going to have an easy time, either.

This subscription model would of course absolutely make sense to me for any kind of professional studio, however Waves has spent the last ten years appealing to home enthusiasts and prosumers and I kind of think that a lot of their products are not really professional grade at this point.

A lot to unpack here. Always odd when a company like this totally changes direction.

I can say that personally, I'm getting very weary of the monthly pay model. A lot of things that seemed liberating in the past now seem like a burden, media streaming services are probably my biggest gripe, but now you see car makers trying to monetize functions in their cars like heated seats being a subscription. There's a limit.
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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Jaguar018 » Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:55 am

Late stage capitalism is the worst. The subscription/rent based economy and the elimination of all ownership except by elites makes me sad, and with AI improving massively- I suspect a bunch of formerly well-paying coding jobs will be eliminated.

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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Embenny » Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:58 am

It's definitely going to lose them a massive chunk of the home enthusiast market. I presume they crunched the numbers and figured that getting subscriptions from a small number of users would be more profitable than getting sporadic purchases from a large number of users.

For home enthusiasts, I think most plugin subscriptions are going to remain unappealing when they don't include a DAW. When you subscribe to something like PreSonus's service, you get access to a ton of plugins and sample libraries, but more importantly, you get access to the top tier of Studio One.

That's something that's much more justifiable than spending the same money on a monthly basis on nothing but plugins, unless they offer some truly revolutionary tools you can't live without. But Waves basically makes versions of all the same types of plugins everybody else makes versions of.
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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Telliot » Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:01 pm

I'm not against a subscription model if it means I have constant access to the latest versions of things I've been using, but to be honest Waves has been slowly working towards this for awhile. I've owned quite a few of their plugins, only to have them become suddenly obsolete with no choice but to purchase either the new version or accept mine no longer works. I've been pretty unimpressed with them for awhile, and as more and more competitors are coming out with better versions of the same thing (or similar), I've simply stopped using their products.
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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by øøøøøøø » Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:07 pm

Jaguar018 wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:55 am
Late stage capitalism is the worst. The subscription/rent based economy and the elimination of all ownership except by elites makes me sad, and with AI improving massively- I suspect a bunch of formerly well-paying coding jobs will be eliminated.
I hear you, but TBH wasn't the concept of "ownership" with software was always a bit strained?

For the first half-century it was treated like a "good" (which may have made some sense when it was sold on diskettes and CD-ROMs in brick-and-mortar stores... but even then the messy patchwork of DRM strategies betrayed that it never quite fit).

With the benefit of hindsight, doesn't it make at least as much sense to think of it more like a "service?" What we're really paying for is the work of programmers, coders, etc to bring the software to a usable state and keep it there despite the continual (and sometimes unpredictable) forward march of hardware.

If I think about it that way, the software companies feel a bit less like "landlords" and a bit more like contractors (if that makes sense?)

Maybe I'm just rationalizing it to make myself feel less ripped-off...

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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by marqueemoon » Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:22 pm

I have enough ongoing expenses as an amateur music maker that I am not recouping.

Not a game I’m generally interested in playing.

Don’t want to pay monthly for a DAW either.

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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by øøøøøøø » Tue Mar 28, 2023 1:32 pm

I'm limping along a 2021-era perpetual license for my DAW of choice at home. But there is a positive side to this migration toward subscription models, in my view.

Roughly every 4-5 years for me, a stable system falls apart and blows up in my face as a massive (usually unexpected) expense. I've always got, at a minimum, the following things to keep happy and communicating with each other:
  • Computer hardware
  • Operating system
  • Interface/converters and all associated drivers
  • DAW
  • All plug-ins
  • Notation software
The good thing about the old "ownership" model is that I could opt out of paying for upgrades once I got a stable, working system... sometimes for several years.

The downside is that, if that stable system got destabilized for any reason (usually just one variable changing) I'd almost always have to re-buy everything.

Even something as insignificant as accidentally leaving auto-update on for the OS could take a full day's work to figure out how to roll back. But the more serious threat is when I start getting files from collaborators and clients that I can't open using my older versions. That will always force my hand on software upgrades.

And those new versions may not work on the old OS, and the new OS may not work (as well) on the old hardware... or maybe the drivers for the interface aren't compatible with the new OS and the company no longer supports a "legacy" product...

Go through that a few times, and the subscription thing starts to seem more attractive.

I'm on about "year 6" of my current hardware setup, so the whole thing is kind of running on fumes anyway. I like the thought that my next "re-buy everything all at once" nightmare could be my last.

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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by Embenny » Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:31 pm

I will say that Apple has been, uncharacteristically, the most consumer-friendly company when it comes to music software licenses.

I bought Logic Pro once, for $99, as an add-on to my iMac in 2008. I have installed it on every Mac I've owned since, both desktop and laptop. It's been updated countless times, has come with more and more plugins and sample libraries, and I've never paid anything beyond that initial $99. That averages out to 55 cents per month I've owned it.

I know they don't rely on Logic sales the way pure software companies have to - they're aiming to keep you invested in the ecosystem so that they can keep selling you new hardware. But it's worked on me. Especially with the move to Apple Silicon - I'm looking forward to my next upgrade, whenever it happens, but for now my 2018 MBP is still soldiering on. In any case, I plan on staying in their ecosystem.

In the era of subscription bullshit, it's been a refreshing reprieve.
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Re: Watch out for Waves...

Post by øøøøøøø » Tue Mar 28, 2023 2:55 pm

in their case, it's probably seen as a value-add for their hardware.

I feel like it must be a loss-leader (or a break-even) at best for them. It's just hard to imagine that someone could bring to market (and support) a DAW as good as Logic Pro to market for $199 as a stand-alone app.

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