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Re: Spec'ing out a new Macbook Pro for a Recording Computer -- Thoughts?
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:10 pm
by Larry Mal
My god, Apple.
So, the M2 Mac Minis are out. Cool! They added some ports back. Cool!
Well, they only added the additional two ports on the M2 Pro version. Uh, OK.
So then I'll get that, and bump it up to 32 GB of RAM, and oh, well, I guess I just spent $1500.
Funny how that got expensive fast.
And I could live with the M2 processor, although the Pro is much better based on what I'm reading (or at least more advanced). But then you lose the ports.
Of course, you can't upgrade either RAM nor hard drive space, because Apple prefers your machine to be obsolete on their schedule and doesn't make money off you buying RAM later and sticking it in yourself.
I dislike Apple very much.
Re: Spec'ing out a new Macbook Pro for a Recording Computer -- Thoughts?
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:28 pm
by Embenny
Hey man, 4 TB and 2 USB-A with a huge processor upgrade and an option for 32GB of RAM - that's a hell of an attractive package compared to anything we had as an option before.
With proper I/O, I don't even care about the soldered SSD, because a decent external TB SSD is plenty fast for anything I'll ever have to do, and so much cheaper. It's still bullshit to solder the SSD, but soldered RAM kinda makes sense for an SoC design from what I understand about ARM SoCs.
I'll be getting one of these new Minis for sure now, with the M2 Pro and 32GB of RAM. That's a system I will not outgrow before it dies.
Re: Spec'ing out a new Macbook Pro for a Recording Computer -- Thoughts?
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:52 pm
by Larry Mal
Yeah, I will probably get one. I don't know why it bugs me like it does. Well, one thing is that as someone who works on computers, there's virtually nothing I could do for any modern Apple. If anything goes bad in there it's either an expensive trip to Apple or more likely it just ends up as waste.
The main hook I like about the M series chips is how cool they run and how little fan cooling they need. A pretty big thing if I plan to be recording in the same room as the computer not to have six or whatever cooling fans blowing in my Mac Pro. Is it six? Two on the graphics card I know.
So, yeah, Apple has been chasing the dream of a fan-free computer for decades and they never got hit right, sometimes with catastrophic results. Too bad Steve Jobs isn't here to see it, that guy fucking hated fans.
Re: Spec'ing out a new Macbook Pro for a Recording Computer -- Thoughts?
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:14 pm
by Larry Mal
Embenny wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:28 pm
That's a system I will not outgrow before it dies.
Well, I wish you the best of luck with doing that. My tower computer at the moment is a 2010 12 core Mac Pro, a very good computer.
But these days your hardware is constantly being made to be obsolete before its time, Apple's yearly operating system updates mean that your computer is good for about five or so of those before your computer is no longer "supported".
Cool, you say, I'll just stay on the latest operating system.
And I'm a couple of operating systems back (I should be farther but I got around it), and I can no longer update to the latest version of Logic, to use one example. There's other third party software that is no longer being supported because they also don't want to have to deal with Apple's older operating systems, and they use it as an excuse to also render their software and products obsolete.
Sooner or later, they'll get you.
This bugs me, because your actual computer is viable (usually) for longer than anyone will update software for it.
Re: Spec'ing out a new Macbook Pro for a Recording Computer -- Thoughts?
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:23 pm
by Embenny
I hear you. But in fairness, I'm not expecting this hardware to last 12 years. With everything soldered on and non-replaceable, the first thing to die takes the rest of the system with it. That's why I say I don't think I'll outgrow the computer before it dies.
But I agree that there's a malicious amount of forced obsolescence.
Re: Spec'ing out a new Macbook Pro for a Recording Computer -- Thoughts?
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 3:33 pm
by Larry Mal
Ah, got it. Well, who knows what the lifespan of these computers will be, honestly. Five to ten years I'd imagine.
You might want to look into the Mac Studio, I'm finding that for a few hundred dollars more you can get that machine, which you might find preferable.
Re: Spec'ing out a new Macbook Pro for a Recording Computer -- Thoughts?
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:16 pm
by Dok
I think the M2 Pro Mini is the perfect recording computer at the moment. Its performance benchmarks out right about where the M1 Max Studio does, and you're not going to get the dreaded Studio coil whine that has plagued so many people. We're starting to get to the point where even the most basic entry level Macs are pretty damn good for making music on. One nice thing about AppleCare+ now is that you can now pay per year instead of up front, and I believe it lasts indefinitely if you don't let coverage lapse. Yes, it's largely another racket for Apple but if you are actually worried about one component taking the whole machine down it's decent insurance. I think it's something like $30 something per year? Honestly not bad at all. The AppleCare+ on the Mini I bought last year was $99 for three years up front, which is a hell of a lot cheaper than that same coverage on a laptop.
Re: Spec'ing out a new Macbook Pro for a Recording Computer -- Thoughts?
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:46 pm
by Larry Mal
Yeah, I think you are probably right. The Studio looks like it has a little more compute power, and will drive more screens, but that M2 Pro Mini is what I'll get.
Re: Spec'ing out a new Macbook Pro for a Recording Computer -- Thoughts?
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:57 pm
by Larry Mal
Incidentally, I'm not sure if I gave all that good of advice with the M1 vs M2 chips.
From here:
Finally, the M2 is built on older architecture than the M2 Pro. The M2 features 20 billion transistors, while the M2 Pro packs over 40 billion, twice that of its predecessor.
More transistors result in more speed and efficiency. Plus, having more transistors crammed into a smaller space results in a microprocessor that can produce more work in less time, without using as much power. Apple also improved the Neural Engine within the M2 Pro, with Apple claiming that it is 40% faster, which should result in the M2 Pro having more raw performance power overall when compared to the M2.
So yeah, the M1 might be good for a lot of things but for me, I'd go for the M2 Pro at the moment.
Re: Spec'ing out a new Macbook Pro for a Recording Computer -- Thoughts?
Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:20 pm
by Embenny
Yep, the M2 Pro Mini hits that sweet spot for me where I finally feel like I'm not getting screwed into paying for a suboptimal machine. The M1 Mini topped out at quite a low amount of RAM, and the I/O was dreadful. The Mac Studio was a huge step up in price, is widely described as being noisy, and didn't offer compelling features (for music production) that made up for those issues.
But the M2 Pro Mini comes in significantly cheaper than the Studio, has proper I/O, and offers proper amounts of RAM on top of a pretty impressive looking CPU and GPU. It's the exact spot on the price:performance curve I'm looking for.
I'll be ordering one when I'm done setting up the studio, so my poor MBP can live out its remaining years doing office work.
Re: Spec'ing out a new Macbook Pro for a Recording Computer -- Thoughts?
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:24 am
by NBarnes21
Embenny wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:20 pm
Yep, the M2 Pro Mini hits that sweet spot for me where I finally feel like I'm not getting screwed into paying for a suboptimal machine. The M1 Mini topped out at quite a low amount of RAM, and the I/O was dreadful. The Mac Studio was a huge step up in price, is widely described as being noisy, and didn't offer compelling features (for music production) that made up for those issues.
But the M2 Pro Mini comes in significantly cheaper than the Studio, has proper I/O, and offers proper amounts of RAM on top of a pretty impressive looking CPU and GPU. It's the exact spot on the price:performance curve I'm looking for.
I'll be ordering one when I'm done setting up the studio, so my poor MBP can live out its remaining years doing office work.
Kind of annoying that the M2 Pro Mini tops out at 32 GB Ram. I'm still rocking a maxed out 27" 2013 iMac that has 32 GB ram and the fastest i7. It's still a workhorse that can run Logic and my UAD stuff no problem so I haven't felt the need to update, but at some point I'd like to refresh just so I can get on the latest OS and latest version of Logic. But shelling out $1,700 for a new system that doesn't even offer more ram than my old one seems stupid, and if I want to make the jump to 64 GB ram I've gotta get the studio that comes in at $2,400.
Re: Spec'ing out a new Macbook Pro for a Recording Computer -- Thoughts?
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:06 am
by stevejamsecono
Damn this blew up since I left. Appreciate all the comments, everyone!
So I think 32g is gonna be the way to go for me. Seems worth it and will help keep the Macbook lasting longer. Gonna pull the trigger when I get paid next month and hopefully can get stuck in to doing some new demoing and so-forth.
Re: Spec'ing out a new Macbook Pro for a Recording Computer -- Thoughts?
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:25 am
by Embenny
NBarnes21 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:24 am
Kind of annoying that the M2 Pro Mini tops out at 32 GB Ram. I'm still rocking a maxed out 27" 2013 iMac that has 32 GB ram and the fastest i7. It's still a workhorse that can run Logic and my UAD stuff no problem so I haven't felt the need to update, but at some point I'd like to refresh just so I can get on the latest OS and latest version of Logic. But shelling out $1,700 for a new system that doesn't even offer more ram than my old one seems stupid, and if I want to make the jump to 64 GB ram I've gotta get the studio that comes in at $2,400.
Well, you have to keep in mind the structure of their price tier system. The Mini is at the bottom, and the integrated iMacs are a step up from that. The M1 generation of the Mini topped out at 16GB, so doubling that cap one generation later to match the second tier offering from a few years ago is expected.
The purpose of the Studio is to essentially offer an iMac without a monitor, a second-tier offering positioned above the Mini in price and features.
If they went ahead and offered 64GB Minis, they'd cannibalize sales of the Studio. A lot more people can benefit from the extra RAM vs the extra CPU and GPU cores, so the Studio would have extremely limited appeal at that point.
So yeah, to make a meaningful upgrade from an older second-tier system is going to require buying a new second-tier system, not a bottom-tier one. Especially since your previous system was loaded with 32GB of RAM and the fastest i7 - that's a system that was far above the Mini of its day in every possible way, so you couldn't really expect a current Mini to feel like a big overall upgrade unless you wait until your system is many generations behind.
The fact that they're offering 32GB at all on the Mini is cause for celebration, in my opinion. They capped it at 16 for so long because they really wanted to drive less-casual users to that next price tier. I wouldn't expect to see 64GB of RAM on a Mini for many years.
Re: Spec'ing out a new Macbook Pro for a Recording Computer -- Thoughts?
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:49 am
by NBarnes21
Embenny wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:25 am
Well, you have to keep in mind the structure of their price tier system. The Mini is at the bottom, and the integrated iMacs are a step up from that. The M1 generation of the Mini topped out at 16GB, so doubling that cap one generation later to match the second tier offering from a few years ago is expected.
The purpose of the Studio is to essentially offer an iMac without a monitor, a second-tier offering positioned above the Mini in price and features.
If they went ahead and offered 64GB Minis, they'd cannibalize sales of the Studio. A lot more people can benefit from the extra RAM vs the extra CPU and GPU cores, so the Studio would have extremely limited appeal at that point.
So yeah, to make a meaningful upgrade from an older second-tier system is going to require buying a new second-tier system, not a bottom-tier one. Especially since your previous system was loaded with 32GB of RAM and the fastest i7 - that's a system that was far above the Mini of its day in every possible way, so you couldn't really expect a current Mini to feel like a big overall upgrade unless you wait until your system is many generations behind.
The fact that they're offering 32GB at all on the Mini is cause for celebration, in my opinion. They capped it at 16 for so long because they really wanted to drive less-casual users to that next price tier. I wouldn't expect to see 64GB of RAM on a Mini for many years.
Yeah- given that the technological developments of the last decade have reduced the need for a super powerful system to record audio, I was hoping that upgrading would be cheaper. And I suppose the M2 Pro Mini is still a perfectly capable machine, but it might not be capable enough to serve me another 10+ years like my iMac has. Maybe they'll release an M2 Pro Studio at some point, that would make the jump in price seem more worth it than the current lineup as it stands. But yeah, Apple knows what they're doing by intentionally limiting the capabilities of their entry level models, guessing it wouldn't be that hard to allow the mini to accommodate 64 GB ram
Re: Spec'ing out a new Macbook Pro for a Recording Computer -- Thoughts?
Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:54 am
by Larry Mal
I guess one way I can look at it is that I'm replacing a 12 year old Mac Pro, which cost a lot more than the $1500 I'll be spending on the Mini, and the Mini will outcompete it in every way.
I certainly don't have to replace a Mac Pro with the current Mac Pro.
What computers can actually do has improved so much that you can get entry level machines that will do anything you could realistically want for most people.