At what point do you turn it off?

Get that song on tape! Errr... disk?
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marqueemoon
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At what point do you turn it off?

Post by marqueemoon » Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:32 am

This project (tracked and mixed by someone else) overall sounds great, but sure enough things I recommended we change and was overruled on are still bugging me after the first round of masters has come back for review, and I have a bunch of NEW notes on the mastering work (which I’m also generally happy with).

For the time and money we spent on this it sounds amazing, and yet I can’t turn the critical part of my brain off.

I think with sleeping on this a bit more I can pare my list down to the most meaningful things, and at this point we have a deadline which helps. Also, we all have a limited appetite for throwing much more money at this, so that will be a natural limit as well.

How do I talk myself down a little bit though?

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Re: At what point do you turn it off?

Post by Telliot » Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:21 am

I listened to a podcast yesterday with Jonny Greenwood and Thom Yorke, and they were saying how they were never satisfied with the song Decks Dark, but at some point the album was due and they had to accept it as it was. A couple years after the album came out, Thom was watching the Netflix series Ozark, which uses the song in the final scene of the first season (Jason Bateman is a Radiohead superfan and couldn't believe he got permission to use it), and he was pleasantly surprised how well it worked. Hearing the song in that context made him rethink all the issues he'd ever had with it and accept it was good. Apparently he had no idea the song was going to be in the show and it took a moment to realize it was a him.

I'm saying all that not to suggest the problems you hear aren't there - maybe there are glaring problems that nobody else wants to admit exist because of the time and financial implications of going back to remix and master everything - but I am suggesting that some distance usually helps. I know this is true with my own music: I put out 6 singles last year, not liking any one of the final mixes or mastering. I thought they were really bad, actually. Since then, when it randomly comes on Pandora or something else, on different speaker systems and different listening situations, I've realized they're fine and the things that bothered me are things that (a) weren't as big a deal as I thought they were, and (b) nobody else hears.


[rant] I know Radiohead are a divisive subject, but I still maintain they are one of the most iconic and influential bands in modern history. They are one of those bands that constantly push and stretch what is possible and I fucking love that.[/rant]
The cool thing about fretless is you can hit a note...and then renegotiate.

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Re: At what point do you turn it off?

Post by marqueemoon » Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:22 pm

Telliot wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:21 am
I'm saying all that not to suggest the problems you hear aren't there - maybe there are glaring problems that nobody else wants to admit exist because of the time and financial implications of going back to remix and master everything - but I am suggesting that some distance usually helps. I know this is true with my own music: I put out 6 singles last year, not liking any one of the final mixes or mastering. I thought they were really bad, actually. Since then, when it randomly comes on Pandora or something else, on different speaker systems and different listening situations, I've realized they're fine and the things that bothered me are things that (a) weren't as big a deal as I thought they were, and (b) nobody else hears.
Yeah. With any recording project I have to set it aside for a while, and when I finally revisit it I’m able to hear it as a whole much better.

When I’m doing the mixing and playing everything I have a much easier time with all of this as I can at least keep most of my perfectionism to myself.

I feel like I have a good working relationship with my bandmates and the others involved, but that just takes way more mental energy.

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Re: At what point do you turn it off?

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:53 pm

At some point you just have to declare something done. You can keep reworking something and never get it done. You have to have a reference point for when something will be considered done. Think of it like school- at some point, you had to turn the paper in, perfect or not.

If your bandmates are happy with the mix, maybe that can be your reference point.
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Re: At what point do you turn it off?

Post by Telliot » Fri Apr 22, 2022 1:12 pm

I agree with Larry - I don't know any creative person who ever feels something is done. Deadlines are vital to getting anything accomplished.
The cool thing about fretless is you can hit a note...and then renegotiate.

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Re: At what point do you turn it off?

Post by marqueemoon » Fri Apr 22, 2022 2:01 pm

Oh, I totally agree. I set deadlines for myself all the time.

Yes, everyone else is pretty happy and that’s important. I think they also burned out before I did on the nitty gritty stuff. That’s why I agreed to be the go-between on mastering.

Apparently all of *my* burnout hit this morning.

Thanks for listening.

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Re: At what point do you turn it off?

Post by DeathJag » Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:12 pm

This is exactly why I only record sound for a living. Once I wanted to be an editor, then I was one for a few years. Now I only record.

Burnout affects everything from perception to cogitation, it’s no joke. If you are in burnout, don’t trust your decision making abilities as you normally would. Exercise can help, and sleep always helps. If you are an extrovert, go recharge with other people. If you’re introverted, stay home and recharge yourself.

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Re: At what point do you turn it off?

Post by Larry Mal » Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:24 pm

marqueemoon wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 2:01 pm
Oh, I totally agree. I set deadlines for myself all the time.

Yes, everyone else is pretty happy and that’s important. I think they also burned out before I did on the nitty gritty stuff. That’s why I agreed to be the go-between on mastering.

Apparently all of *my* burnout hit this morning.

Thanks for listening.
Did you pay a professional to do the mixing, also?

I always figured that would be something that the band should agree on, put it in the hands of a professional, and accept the results, unless there is something screamingly bad.

That way you have a buffer.

I'd be happy to listen to the tracks, if you liked. I could tell you if I feel there's anything vastly out of place in my opinion.
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Re: At what point do you turn it off?

Post by stevejamsecono » Fri Apr 22, 2022 5:46 pm

Great opportunity to impart one of my favorite pieces of advice that I'd ever heard --

One of my clients for work is the designer of Electric Lady Studios and I had the privilege of getting a personalized tour from him of the place a few years back. It was really interesting and fun and he was clearly still very proud of everything he'd done at the tender age of 23 or so to a place that has become what it has become. In the time since he's built a few thousand more, so he's been quite busy and learned a lot, so when we got through with it I asked him if, given that, there was anything he'd change now about ELS.

His response?

"Nah. You just gotta finish shit."

As flip as that sounds -- and granted, I basically asked him if he wanted to fix anything about the Mona Lisa -- that turn of phrase really struck me. Discography thinking is how anyone should be thinking about their work, so when it starts to interfere with things getting done, just move on and fix it next time.
And you find out life isn't like that
It's so hard to understand
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Re: At what point do you turn it off?

Post by andy_tchp » Fri Apr 22, 2022 5:57 pm

There's a very real risk of 'over-egging the pudding' in this scenario.

It's exactly what happened to my second album that ended up permanently shelved/shitcanned.

None of those songs will ever see release.
marqueemoon wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:32 am
For the time and money we spent on this it sounds amazing
It's done.


* Unless something is objectively technically wrong/bad.
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Re: At what point do you turn it off?

Post by marqueemoon » Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:11 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:24 pm
Did you pay a professional to do the mixing, also?

I always figured that would be something that the band should agree on, put it in the hands of a professional, and accept the results, unless there is something screamingly bad.

That way you have a buffer.

I'd be happy to listen to the tracks, if you liked. I could tell you if I feel there's anything vastly out of place in my opinion.
Yes. Tracked and mixed by the same person.

The person who tracked and mixed this is quite good, but we still had a lot of notes and the mixing part was done remotely which I've decided I absolutely hate. No fault of this engineer specifically. It's just not how I like to work.

I think I've managed to talk myself down a bit and my list of notes is shrinking. I appreciate the offer though and may take you up on it.

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Re: At what point do you turn it off?

Post by øøøøøøø » Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:41 pm

Sometimes the best thing about something is either invisible to, or loathsome to, the person(s) who made it.

Usually, issues that seem large to the creator are never noticed by anyone else.

Often when something ages awhile, we soften to or even come to love things we didn’t like in the moment.

Other times, they become ever-more-exaggerated and grotesque in our minds and the work becomes regrettable and unlistenable to us.

Experience and perspective help us triangulate which applies.

Often, the best perspective comes from a trusted producer who really gets the artistic intent/vision, which is why I think having someone fill that role is underrated

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Re: At what point do you turn it off?

Post by Kent » Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:56 am

Telliot wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:21 am
I listened to a podcast yesterday with Jonny Greenwood and Thom Yorke…
Link to podcast, please?

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Re: At what point do you turn it off?

Post by Telliot » Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:37 am

Kent wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2022 12:56 am
Telliot wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:21 am
I listened to a podcast yesterday with Jonny Greenwood and Thom Yorke…
Link to podcast, please?
SmartLess feat. Jonny Greenwood and Thom Yorke
The cool thing about fretless is you can hit a note...and then renegotiate.

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Re: At what point do you turn it off?

Post by marqueemoon » Sat Apr 23, 2022 10:27 am

øøøøøøø wrote:
Fri Apr 22, 2022 6:41 pm
Often, the best perspective comes from a trusted producer who really gets the artistic intent/vision, which is why I think having someone fill that role is underrated
This is something I’d very much like to do for another artist someday.

Mixing my bandmate’s EP was one of the most rewarding things I’ve done in a long time because we collaborated every step of the way. He had his working mixes, and a lot of the process was just me making small changes to get the idea across a little better. It really wasn’t about putting my stamp on it.

I’d definitely be open to having someone outside of my own bands play this role too, but there has never been a budget for such things. This band in particular has a sound and a working dynamic where that would be beneficial.

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