Mix Feedback

Get that song on tape! Errr... disk?
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jorri
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Mix Feedback

Post by jorri » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:27 am


https://soundcloud.app.goo.gl/EJ27R


Im in the process of mixing-mastering these, trying not to re-listen before i finalise. Alas, i still made a few versions. Some i was questioning whether i had improved upon their unmixed state and perhaps a frequent issue when mixing and needing other ears (i guess wont go further than that and bore with ever problem i could list I am hearing- but ok, commercial tracks have more high is the big thing, either they get harsh or lose bass too much)

Posting for feedback. The later numbers are latest and theoretically the best. Thought Ondine and Peroxide came together when i actually added some eq based on some references (Slowdive, Autolux) so thats the versions labelled 'match'.

I seem to discover putting EQ after a mastering limiter actually sounds better. Is there any reason not to do that, other than having to readjust the fader for peaks?

Would be wonderful if anyone has time to listen. Thanks.

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Re: Mix Feedback

Post by soggy mittens » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:30 pm

I only listened to 2 mins of the first track but way too bassy and mismatch of the gain (harmonic saturation), particularly the drum elements and pretty much anything above 200hz sounded weaker/lower RMS than the bass.
If OSG has tort me anything...

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Re: Mix Feedback

Post by marqueemoon » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:32 pm

soggy mittens wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:30 pm
I only listened to 2 mins of the first track but way too bassy and mismatch of the gain (harmonic saturation), particularly the drum elements and pretty much anything above 200hz sounded weaker/lower RMS than the bass.
I listened to a few more. There is really a lot going on in the arrangements overall. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but when there are a lot of elements competing for attention a mix can start to sound flat. Carving away the frequencies that compete will only help so much, and adding reverb can often backfire.

Overall I dig the music. If I were mixing it I would experiment with other sounds for any MIDI stuff (like alternate and less boomy drum and low synth sounds), and just bring individual elements in and out more and do different things to create interest and space like panning reverbs opposite dry tracks, automated panning moves, mutes, etc... Not sure if the OP is a fan, but to me Four Tet would be really good reference material. That guy is just a master of subtly bringing things in and out.

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Re: Mix Feedback

Post by soggy mittens » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:28 pm

Yeah to me that is one of the great things about ensuring the gain saturation of everything is well balanced so that everything will come through clear no matter what volume or device you are listening to it on. EQing can help as well but it is only a part of the process, depending on how it was recorded. I hear it a lot in local music.. mixes that ain't balanced correctly, typically there will be one or two parts that just ain't cutting through or one or two things that are just way louder. It ain't always about EQing, spacial placement, and balancing the levels and then hoping that will work, you can't always avoid instruments sharing frequencies and if their harmonics are balanced then they will most likely be fine.

To me that is why the low end is so big and boomy around 80-100hz, it is compressed way more than the top end and therefore has a higher RMS, saturating the top end more will help balance it out, alternatively compressing the the mids and top end too much can introduce its own problems like ear fatigue and harshness.
If OSG has tort me anything...

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Re: Mix Feedback

Post by jorri » Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:53 am

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

Think the post were before i uploaded something last night but only saw these now. I had realised how muddy they were and changed a lot around on Ondine last night after actually referencing. Should be up as '5'. It was my brother in law coming over and offering suggestions even tweaking a project copy (although not really having much experience, somehow letting him eq and make 18db bands over everything freed up my head even though it was certainly unusable)

Mainly some things id previously been advised to avoid like the frequency analyser and strong eq, i shouldnt be avoiding. I think a lot of work crammed into a short space of time (a 'day' on mixing each really), so hearing some of this is good.

But that one's got more treble - is labelled no.5. Whilst I've re-eq'd a fair amount is rendered but not re-balancing everything ultimately i just aimed for a 'master eq' by changing individual tracks for most part, and everythings is in the fader levels so will go back to that in a week or so. I do wonder if frequency clashes are just the total balanced, over-subby masking (if everything is mud then it wont separate anyway).

I also changed snare on it and reduced some drum verb and things (much like 'if everything is big and dense, nothing will sound big and dense'). Ive really got to take my time with it, and not get locked in, that snare before was quite bad and i could have easily changed a while back- but somehow i get into a habit of 'nah dont touch that, edit it, eq it' when i preach the complete opposite.

In terms of saturation i could look at that as well, there were a few instances of things slapped on perhaps in place of properly balancing it. And approaching after a break, bit more creatively as mentioned - yes love Four Tet I find might want to be a bit less minimal if its shoegazey- non-IDM, but for sure minimalism of his i appreciate-- the other 'minimalism' like Steve Reich is much more "everything always unvarying" which id say im influenced by too but can give me odd ideas that dont always translate.

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Re: Mix Feedback

Post by jorri » Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:08 am

marqueemoon wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:32 pm

Overall I dig the music. If I were mixing it I would experiment with other sounds for any MIDI stuff (like alternate and less boomy drum and low synth sounds)

All amp sim + guitar pedals in fact, only thing in there is a piano but its a real one. The drums EZdrummer however which leaves some scope to change.

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Re: Mix Feedback

Post by HarlowTheFish » Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:18 am

Okay, I listened to revision 5 all the way through on a couple of different speakers/cans, here's a couple of ideas:

Try fitting the instruments together with EQ -- specifically, cut bass low mids, then boost the guitar lows in the same frequency, and cut guitar low mids, and boost bass high mids in the same frequencies. You can pick and choose what frequencies specifically you want, so there's some flexibility in keeping the information you want in each instrument, but this really helps keep everything sounding connected. I use the Ignite Amps PTEQ-X (which is free too) for this because it's very flexible but pretty intuitive, so it's easy to try a bunch of different configurations.

I think the drums have some really interesting stuff going on, but they're getting a little lost. I feel like they could do with some saturation, either a bit on the main track or a second track that's super saturated then just blended in as much as you want.

The EQ overall seems very skewed to the bass range, like some other folks said. If you were adjusting it by a straight line, I'd say you probably want something like a 10 degree incline from bass to treble, just to control the overall low end and brighten it up a bit.

Bring up that piano, it sounds great!

Your reverbs are making the mix a bit busy, so consider EQing anything below the midrange on any given instrument out of the reverbs, and brightening up your master reverb. This'll help keep stuff from piling up in the low end reverbiness. Sort of tied to this, anything that you have panned, pan a little harder, because it feels a bit compressed laterally, if that makes any sense.

Honestly though I really like it, I think the individual parts sounds really good compositionally and pretty good tone-wise, it's mostly just a matter of figuring out what to chop that listeners won't notice (and/or how to fill it back in with something else once you have) to get everything to fit in the mix.

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Re: Mix Feedback

Post by jorri » Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:28 pm

HarlowTheFish wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:18 am
Okay, I listened to revision 5 all the way through on a couple of different speakers/cans, here's a couple of ideas:

Try fitting the instruments together with EQ -- specifically, cut bass low mids, then boost the guitar lows in the same frequency, and cut guitar low mids, and boost bass high mids in the same frequencies. You can pick and choose what frequencies specifically you want, so there's some flexibility in keeping the information you want in each instrument, but this really helps keep everything sounding connected. I use the Ignite Amps PTEQ-X (which is free too) for this because it's very flexible but pretty intuitive, so it's easy to try a bunch of different configurations.

I think the drums have some really interesting stuff going on, but they're getting a little lost. I feel like they could do with some saturation, either a bit on the main track or a second track that's super saturated then just blended in as much as you want.

The EQ overall seems very skewed to the bass range, like some other folks said. If you were adjusting it by a straight line, I'd say you probably want something like a 10 degree incline from bass to treble, just to control the overall low end and brighten it up a bit.

Bring up that piano, it sounds great!

Your reverbs are making the mix a bit busy, so consider EQing anything below the midrange on any given instrument out of the reverbs, and brightening up your master reverb. This'll help keep stuff from piling up in the low end reverbiness. Sort of tied to this, anything that you have panned, pan a little harder, because it feels a bit compressed laterally, if that makes any sense.

Honestly though I really like it, I think the individual parts sounds really good compositionally and pretty good tone-wise, it's mostly just a matter of figuring out what to chop that listeners won't notice (and/or how to fill it back in with something else once you have) to get everything to fit in the mix.
Thanks for the listens. Its really a tutorial ive not had much of before.

Gave these things a bit of a try earlier, good advice i think from results. It should apply to the other tracks ive done too, in addition to those replies above. I think I will render in a while so there is a bit more time to keep tweaking. - i have done the plugin work but will still come back to a balance.

Ive massively re-assessed the amnt of time i "scheduled" for it thats for sure as was kidding myself i was ready for 'quick mixing' on them.

Next time the references and reference analysis will be used earlier instead of just my ears. But working on some new ones soon and taking more time tracking too in consideration of how parts work in the structure instead of "get down every idea for a part youve thought of!".

Been using a Sub AUX, and the three mic tracks for kick provided, those boomier elements right down as well in addition to suggestions. Some of the verb was BASS verb especially. Also Ive barely used subtractive notches to affect separation so that seem to fullfill some of what you were talking about.

-

Did the same on the second song and moving through gradually- will post new versions soon. Glad the music is liked though, i had some worries over vocals as intended someone else to sing but ended up altering my voice with varispeed instead.

Thanks again. Needed this to wake me out of it just being a droll through lockdown of 'who cares just finish them!' :)

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Re: Mix Feedback

Post by jorri » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:07 pm

After a lot of adjusting: https://soundcloud.com/aliquisartikkel/ ... MGdHnXUrwD


They seem like a night and day difference to me from my original post but whether they meet another standard is another matter.
I am still looking for final tweaks following feedback perhaps but also wrapping up the process I've probably spent enough time on.
This thread has been really helpful although a lot was easier to implement on new tracks (just tracking atm) from scratch especially in arrangement, or dealing with frequencies at the beginning of mixing to make the job easier. So its taught me more than anything.

I am selecting an EP worth of 5-6 tracks (the rest will still be on soundcloud when public though). Roughly the order of the first five up to 'Rotifers'. But i keep changing mind on 3-4, not even in terms of just taste but ive changed mind on thinking "those are too weak, those are ok!". So 11 tracks here I think it was 6 before.

Thanks

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Re: Mix Feedback

Post by HarlowTheFish » Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:32 pm

jorri wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:07 pm
After a lot of adjusting: https://soundcloud.com/aliquisartikkel/ ... MGdHnXUrwD


They seem like a night and day difference to me from my original post but whether they meet another standard is another matter.
I am still looking for final tweaks following feedback perhaps but also wrapping up the process I've probably spent enough time on.
This thread has been really helpful although a lot was easier to implement on new tracks (just tracking atm) from scratch especially in arrangement, or dealing with frequencies at the beginning of mixing to make the job easier. So its taught me more than anything.

I am selecting an EP worth of 5-6 tracks (the rest will still be on soundcloud when public though). Roughly the order of the first five up to 'Rotifers'. But i keep changing mind on 3-4, not even in terms of just taste but ive changed mind on thinking "those are too weak, those are ok!". So 11 tracks here I think it was 6 before.

Thanks
Honestly, having done a listen through, I have pretty much nothing in terms of objective feedback because I think you have some pretty killer mixes here. Subjectively, in stuff like Ondine and Peroxide you have some really cool stuff happening in the percussion that sits a bit low in the mix, but that's a preference thing -- I pump my drums up a bit because I like something really animated and punchy, but the vibe I'm getting is almost more orchestral percussion than just "a set of drums".

Honestly, really killer compositions, great performances, and I think they sound stellar!

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Re: Mix Feedback

Post by jorri » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:19 am

HarlowTheFish wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:32 pm
jorri wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:07 pm
After a lot of adjusting: https://soundcloud.com/aliquisartikkel/ ... MGdHnXUrwD


They seem like a night and day difference to me from my original post but whether they meet another standard is another matter.
I am still looking for final tweaks following feedback perhaps but also wrapping up the process I've probably spent enough time on.
This thread has been really helpful although a lot was easier to implement on new tracks (just tracking atm) from scratch especially in arrangement, or dealing with frequencies at the beginning of mixing to make the job easier. So its taught me more than anything.

I am selecting an EP worth of 5-6 tracks (the rest will still be on soundcloud when public though). Roughly the order of the first five up to 'Rotifers'. But i keep changing mind on 3-4, not even in terms of just taste but ive changed mind on thinking "those are too weak, those are ok!". So 11 tracks here I think it was 6 before.

Thanks
Honestly, having done a listen through, I have pretty much nothing in terms of objective feedback because I think you have some pretty killer mixes here. Subjectively, in stuff like Ondine and Peroxide you have some really cool stuff happening in the percussion that sits a bit low in the mix, but that's a preference thing -- I pump my drums up a bit because I like something really animated and punchy, but the vibe I'm getting is almost more orchestral percussion than just "a set of drums".

Honestly, really killer compositions, great performances, and I think they sound stellar!
Thanks. Good to hear especially after an extra rush of effort.

Yes, the drums are difficult decision, i was hearing them much lower and smeared than most references, almost like i can feature those OR the dense, often sustained sounds. So they wouldnt quite go up without producing some dissonance, or masking of all the 'classical-esque' things on top.
Getting at least kick, snare, important toms audible as groove then I think i refer to Kevin Shields mixing a bit in that guitars kind of 'overwhelm', but in a bit I'll take them for a spin on a long car journey perhaps. Is also cymbals take up the presence of these 'slowdivey' lead guitar thats 100% long verb and treble boosted drive. Hamerkop and Lupine much easier to get those drums up and think they feature more because i composed drums+bass only first (dual acoustic/electric kits) then tried a bit more sparsity where the bass was important and the guitars just drone in the background. So maybe is in the arrangement.

Other things i did was get as much out the stereo sides and the verb from low mids down and actually gave more impression of width/ambience. I also analysed the spectrum a LOT but not robotically. To commercial mixes or the flat pink/red noise curve with extremities rolled off (pinky-red: rosey noise? 4.5db/octave seemed most accurate) because thats not something my ears do on their own yet.

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