Condenser mic recs?

Get that song on tape! Errr... disk?
User avatar
øøøøøøø
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 5984
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:26 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Condenser mic recs?

Post by øøøøøøø » Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:33 pm

Larry Mal wrote:
Sun Apr 17, 2022 11:02 am
øøøøøøø wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:08 pm
I'd recommend stretching to ~1100 and grabbing a Gefell MT71s (if pre-2005, even better). They are stupid good for the money, and have an excellent capsule (a true M7).

I guess I'm going to resurrect this thread as I am intrigued by these Gefells, and likely still on the hunt for a great microphone to record vocals with since I do not think this U87 I bought on eBay is likely to happen. I'm not sure what the deal is there, but I don't think that microphone is coming.

So I guess I'd put the budget around $1100 and used is fine.

Brad, can you elaborate a little more on these and how you use them? I did some reading on the M7 capsules you mention, it seems that this is just about the lowest price point one would find this capsule according to this.
Yeah!

So here's the deal. There are three main things that I consider to have a whole lot of influence on the sound of a condenser mic. Roughly in order: capsule, active element(s), output/balancing transformer.

In the MT71, you have what many consider to be one of the 2-3 best-sounding center-terminated capsules ever designed/made (the K47/K49 and K67/K870 being the others). So that's pretty well-sorted, and is arguably the most important thing.

The active element is a simple FET amplifier, not worlds apart from what you might find in something like a U87. Is this the most magical, mystical way to turn an extremely weak, extremely high-impedance signal into a stronger, lower-impedance one? Nah, probably not. But nobody has any qualms with how a U87 or KM84 sounds, you know.

The output is active-balanced, which is another way of saying "transformerless." Transistors (sometimes discrete, sometimes integrated) replace the impedance-transformation function of the transformer.

As recently as the 1990s, this was considered a "high tech, improved" way to do things. Now that we have high-tech, improved recorders, it's become more fashionable to turn electricity into magnetism at least a couple of times to prevent things from sounding "sterile." This fashion could of course swing back the other way at any moment.

It's also fixed-cardioid, which cuts costs but is fine because an LDC generally sounds best in cardioid anyway. Summing two diaphragms in-phase is not the same as a true pressure omni, and summing them out-of-phase is not the same as a true velocity mic (figure 8 ). Who uses a U47 in omni, you know? Almost literally nobody. It's pretty "meh" in omni.

So the TL;DR: The MT71 gets the most important part right (the capsule), the second most-important part just fine (the active element), and sacrifices a bit of multipattern functionality and eschews a transformer on the output to save cost.

In my view, this is a MUCH better path to a good LDC than using a tube, a nice transformer, a fancy exterior, and the same $99 imported capsule everyone else uses.

User avatar
Larry Mal
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 19673
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:25 pm
Location: Saint Louis, MO

Re: Condenser mic recs?

Post by Larry Mal » Sun Apr 17, 2022 1:45 pm

øøøøøøø wrote:
Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:33 pm


Yeah!

So here's the deal. There are three main things that I consider to have a whole lot of influence on the sound of a condenser mic. Roughly in order: capsule, active element(s), output/balancing transformer.

In the MT71, you have what many consider to be one of the 2-3 best-sounding center-terminated capsules ever designed/made (the K47/K49 and K67/K870 being the others). So that's pretty well-sorted, and is arguably the most important thing.

The active element is a simple FET amplifier, not worlds apart from what you might find in something like a U87. Is this the most magical, mystical way to turn an extremely weak, extremely high-impedance signal into a stronger, lower-impedance one? Nah, probably not. But nobody has any qualms with how a U87 or KM84 sounds, you know.

The output is active-balanced, which is another way of saying "transformerless." Transistors (sometimes discrete, sometimes integrated) replace the impedance-transformation function of the transformer.

As recently as the 1990s, this was considered a "high tech, improved" way to do things. Now that we have high-tech, improved recorders, it's become more fashionable to turn electricity into magnetism at least a couple of times to prevent things from sounding "sterile." This fashion could of course swing back the other way at any moment.
Great advice, so, if I could follow up a bit, do you think this is a great microphone or just a great microphone for the money? I know you have some other heavy hitting microphones, when do you prefer this Gefell over something else? I like what I'm reading about it, it seems like it will have good clarity and yet avoid some of the harshness that some microphones can have in the high end.

Which brings me to a point you made there about the "high tech, improved" sound of microphones somewhat clashing with high tech recording devices. I had mentioned on another thread that I had read that the KM184 (I own a couple of them) replaced the KM84 at the tail end of tape recording, and the person who mentioned this to me was of the opinion that the enhanced (and somewhat harsh) high end of the KM184 might have made more sense before the digital era.

Not really sure where I'm going with that, but it did touch on some stuff that you said there a bit.

Back to the Gefell, though, would it be something that you would say was good, but, if one could stretch the budget one should consider a (fill in the blank here).

My feeling is thinking that I bought a U87 (which I may have) gave me the feeling that I had the microphones to pretty much do whatever job I needed to do, and if I have to buy another microphone I'd like to get that feeling out of that one, you know?

As always, thanks for the advice- I very much appreciate having someone with as much knowledge as you to bounce this stuff off.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

User avatar
øøøøøøø
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 5984
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:26 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Condenser mic recs?

Post by øøøøøøø » Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:33 pm

I think the MT71 is a great microphone period.

To answer your question, for a little more money I might like an older MV692 body with UM70 head, which is essentially the older/vintage transformer-balanced version of the same thing. I just think it has a little more flavor.

The thing is, people have kind of caught onto those, and the MT71 might well be the better value today. It also has the bonus of being far less likely to need service/repair

At the NYC spot we've got a pretty extensive mic locker, and we do still use our pair of MT71s with some frequency. I finished a record recently where I used them as drum overheads (honestly because they were already on stands in Studio B where I was tracking drums alone and I was lazy). They end up on toms a fair bit, and one of our partners really loves to pair one with a K47-equipped U47 on upright bass.

Is it equivalent to a good U87? Maybe not quite, but it definitely punches in the same weight class for roughly 30% of the cost. If someone handed me one and said "we need a record, it needs to sound amazing, but you can only use this one mic" I wouldn't panic, you know?

User avatar
Dok
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 2225
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:39 pm
Location: Ojai

Re: Condenser mic recs?

Post by Dok » Sun Apr 17, 2022 2:38 pm

Since I participated in this thread previously I wanted to make a note that I replaced my U87ai, which ended up being frustratingly sibilant on my vocals, with a TLM67. And technically, it was just a body swap so I kept the capsule. Sometimes there are great deals on the TLM67 if you're patient, but probably not quite $1100 great.
Local milk person

User avatar
øøøøøøø
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 5984
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:26 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Condenser mic recs?

Post by øøøøøøø » Sun Apr 17, 2022 7:42 pm

One thing that’s a little tricky sometimes is that some U87s really are better than others.

We have a couple from the 70s that are just glorious, one from the 80s that’s good, a pair from the 90s that are really good. For a time we had one from about 2005 (the one with the SMT daughter card replacing FET) and it was pretty poor by comparison to all of the above.

I’ve heard some brand new ones that are really good again.

Also the capsules have a tolerance, and one with more tension will definitely sound different… so you just never know.

Also buying used/vintage you truly never know. These mics start out with a fairly narrow range of performance, and then can diverge substantially over time

User avatar
Larry Mal
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 19673
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:25 pm
Location: Saint Louis, MO

Re: Condenser mic recs?

Post by Larry Mal » Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:39 pm

What's the story with the Neumann TLM193, anyone know? There's one out there fairly cheap, and from what I am reading it is considered "darker" than other modern type large diaphragm condensers which might have a little presence boost around 6k or so, that is, the 193 is said to be very linear.

However I can't read anyone being all that excited about them, when I read reviews from folks who like them, it still seems like they don't have a lot to actually say about them.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

User avatar
Larry Mal
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 19673
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:25 pm
Location: Saint Louis, MO

Re: Condenser mic recs?

Post by Larry Mal » Thu May 05, 2022 8:22 am

øøøøøøø wrote:
Sun Apr 17, 2022 12:33 pm


In the MT71, you have what many consider to be one of the 2-3 best-sounding center-terminated capsules ever designed/made (the K47/K49 and K67/K870 being the others). So that's pretty well-sorted, and is arguably the most important thing.
Well, I done bought one, and this one is from the early 90s when I am told that the capsule was a genuine M7 capsule and not the version that Gefell now makes- I am reading that they changed from PVC to Mylar at some point in the 21st century.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice, I'll be sure to let everyone know what I think.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

User avatar
øøøøøøø
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 5984
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:26 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: Condenser mic recs?

Post by øøøøøøø » Thu May 05, 2022 8:39 am

I think it’s a good buy.

And if you don’t love it, you probably won’t lose by selling it for something else

User avatar
Larry Mal
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 19673
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:25 pm
Location: Saint Louis, MO

Re: Condenser mic recs?

Post by Larry Mal » Thu May 05, 2022 11:33 am

øøøøøøø wrote:
Thu May 05, 2022 8:39 am
I think it’s a good buy.

And if you don’t love it, you probably won’t lose by selling it for something else
I'm sure it'll be a great microphone, I have read a lot on it recently and learned a lot about not only that but microphones in general. Thanks!
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

User avatar
Larry Mal
PAT. # 2.972.923
PAT. # 2.972.923
Posts: 19673
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:25 pm
Location: Saint Louis, MO

Re: Condenser mic recs?

Post by Larry Mal » Fri May 20, 2022 9:21 am

Handsome microphone. Took a long time to get here, there was no tracking after the initial acceptance of it by USPS, I filed a claim yesterday, but today it arrived:

Image

I'll have to test it shortly.
Back in those days, everyone knew that if you were talking about Destiny's Child, you were talking about Beyonce, LaTavia, LeToya, and Larry.

Post Reply